The right of reply

Enough is enough. People who proclaim to fight for freedom of expression and free media but censors other's legitimate reply based on their whims and fancy, must realise that on the internet, they cannot suppress peoples' legitimate right to reply and express contrarian views. This blog welcomes all views. ~ Ellese

Another round against “Racists” (DAP definition) people

198 Comments

I thought its a no brainer why advocates of vernacular schools do not put Malaysian interest first. They put their self, language, culture and/or race first than the rest. They don’t even realised why they fall within DAP definition of racism. They like to call others racists but by the same definition they are one.

These people are so doggedly entrenched with partisan bias unthinking views. I’ll reply to them when I come back later. But I thought of putting up a simple logical write upfront referred to by Anas Zubedy. Those who insist others as racist but support and send children to vernacular schools, I’ll go head on with you later. Those who have read and seen this before, I’ll suggest you skip it. I prefer to go deeper to understand each other and come to a reasoned compromise, but these people have been indoctrinated by these “racist” propaganda that I need to talk sense into them first. Enjoy the read.

“It’s about the lack of early bonding by Luqman Ridha Anwar – The STAR

THE two articles by June H.L. Wong (“Rebooting Our Racial Quota”, May 22, and “The Pain of Pebbles in Our Shoes”, May 29) have prompted me to highlight one point which I feel has alleviated racial division in our beloved country to its present worrying level.
The best of friends are friends that we met and bonded with from our childhood. Unfortunately, young Malaysians have been deprived of this opportunity because our education system allows parents to send their children to different schools – in our case, the vernacular schools.
School is where the real mixing of society occurs. If we add curricular activities, extra classes, waiting and travelling time spent before and after school, in a month, school represents about 24 active days for a child. That’s 80% of their active time being spent together with their school friends!
But in the current system, since early childhood, a Malay, a Chinese, or an Indian might not have a “real” contact with friends from the other races because he goes to kindergarten, then to primary school, then secondary school – all schools of “his own kind”. Once they enter campus life, the racial division has become so deep that they naturally just pool with “their own kind” again.

This brings us to a most fundamental barrier to unity – we have more and more people who cannot speak the national language properly and also are not well-versed about the culture or values of the other races.

Trust begins with perception. Over the years, the lack of bonding that connects the different races led to an absence of trust between us.
Unbalanced representation in the Malaysian workforce in the public sector is a fact. Nobody can deny it and, yes, something has to be done to rectify it. But this is not restricted to the public sector. It is happening widely in the private sector as well. I strongly feel this has more to do with a collective lack of trust during the recruitment phase rather than government policy (which many believe is the cause).
While the Malay lad is more likely to be an officer in the government sector, the Chinese or the Indian lad is likely to be an officer in the private sector.

Through time and experience, they will eventually climb to positions important enough to chair interviews to recruit new talents to be brought into the system. With the absence of trust and with prejudice running deep, each of them will likely let “their own kind” pass through.

This scenario of imbalance is made possible because, cumulatively, thousands of young Malays grow up to be decision makers in the government sector while at the same time, thousands of young Chinese and Indians grow up and become decision makers in the private sector. They pool with and protect the interests of “their own kind”, each one doing the same thing, recruitment after recruitment. So, slowly but surely, the cycle of evil continues.

Going back to the quota issue, short-term measures and policies can only dictate what “should be done”. How well or how sincere the implementation depends on the “implementers”, the people in-charge – but sadly in our case – people who have been psychologically and physically divided since early childhood. It just won’t work.

There were attempts to do away with vernacular schools in the early 1990s but nothing came of it due to strong objections particularly from the elite group of Dong Zhong.

I think it failed because the suggestion to abolish such schools came from the government, the “Malay” government. If it came from the Chinese and Indian communities, such groups might be more open to it.

But this is one major sacrifice that we have to make in order to achieve national unity. There is no two-ways about it. Everybody knows that most of us will not be going anywhere else. Every day, all of us are stuck facing each other in this house called Malaysia.

With one education system, we can start the process of integration for our children – through language bonding, in one complete schooling cycle (12 years).

It is a long shot but this is our only real chance of having a really potent cure. After all, we have not reached a critical state yet so there’s still hope.”

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198 thoughts on “Another round against “Racists” (DAP definition) people

  1. OK, same old story, still doesn’t address the major issues.

    You can’t close the vernacular schools until sekolah agama and kolej MARA are closed as well. If you want a one-school system so much, come right out and support this please.

    Also lay out how you think the need to learn Chinese and Tamil should be addressed in the SKs. They are currently not.

    Once again, DAP does not protect vernacular schools as much as BN does. You’re barking up the wrong tree here, purposely, I suspect.

    Malaysian interests are not synonymous with Malay interests. I’d argue, as a trilingual person who appreciates the wants and needs of my fellow Malaysians, I’m much more Malaysian than you are.

    • With me you don’t kid around.

      The issue is about racism. You yourself say if anyone who don’t put Malaysian first its racism. By merely uttering im malay malaysian its racism. This is the same dap definition.

      So now you support vernacular school which bloody dont care about putting malaysian interest first ipso facto makes you racist by your own definition. Don’t deviate by asking my position. My position is well known by many and I put it into practice. I can elaborate again once we settle the racists issue. So what if bn is racist. I’m not interested in that. Its your stand and value which is a problem.

      So don’t deviate.

  2. Hello wake up everyone! Have a look at the Philippines, Thailand and Indonesia for good examples in united nation-building through education —- but why limit ourselves to those 3 countries? Do have a look at the other ASEAN countries too. Well, let’s go wider and farther afield, look at India, China as well as the rest of the world including the so-called advanced democracies like Britain, Germany and the USA. Does anyone of them have anything like we have in terms of separate & segregated education for their citizens at their early, tender & formative stage? And don’t talk cock and making unsubstantiated claim about being “MORE MALAYSIAN” than the rest. You are blinded by the DAP and Dong Zhong propaganda.

    • Huh. British state education is separated into faith schools (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Muslim etc) and state comprehensives. Faith schools are supposedly required to admit non-religionists but often do not admit more than a token number. In addition, so many children are sent to private schools (called ‘public’ schools) which are expensive and separate children by social economic class. And then you could send your child to a madrasah (teaches in Urdu or Arabic) or to a Chinese language school (yes they exist).

      Singapore separates its children by ability from a very young age. This creates the same problems. Children in the Express stream look down on children in the Normal stream. There used to be a Gifted stream but they thought they were so superior and were so unable to handle real life that the government abolished it.

      Face it – few school systems are completely egalitarian. The best I can think of is Finland’s, and they are also suffering the strains of integrating immigrants.

      There is no best way to do it. A national school system should, at a minimum, satisfy the needs of the country’s parents. A sizeable number of parents in Malaysia want their kids to learn Mandarin and Tamil. Reform the SKs to do this, get rid of sekolah agama and Kolej MARA and that would be a start for Malaysia.

      • With me you don’t kid around.

        The issue is about racism. You yourself say if anyone who don’t put Malaysian first its racism. By merely uttering im malay malaysian its racism. This is the same dap definition.

        So now you support vernacular school which bloody dont care about putting malaysian interest first ipso facto makes you racist by your own definition. Don’t deviate by asking my position. My position is well known by many and I put it into practice. I can elaborate again once we settle the racists issue. So what if bn is racist. I’m not interested in that. Its your stand and value which is a problem.

        So don’t deviate.

        • HY,

          Yes there are ‘Chinese’ schools but the syllabus with the other schools in that country is the same.

          In Malaysia, the Chinese schools are taught in mandarin whereas in the countries you mentioned, the medium is still whatever is the national language; mandarin is but merely a compulsory subject.

          How have you been, by the way?

    • since me n our host know each other position pretty well from our many discussion in the past, i wish not to repeat, just want to make known of some facts, there is chinese school in philippines, and recently in indonesia as well. not familiar with western country n indiathough, but china have many school cater for minority, the many subject were taught in minority language, especially at primary level.

  3. Why divert attention to sekolah agama and kolej MARA? Join them and you will be welcome.

    • They are also segregationist. In case you didn’t notice there are many Malaysians who are not Muslim and who are not Malay. Why should there be a segment of the education system that excludes them?

      Besides, Malay kids can join vernacular Chinese and Tamil schools. In fact, many do – more than Chinese or Indian kids who manage to get into Kolej MARA in fact.

      • With me you don’t kid around.

        The issue is about racism. You yourself say if anyone who don’t put Malaysian first its racism. By merely uttering im malay malaysian its racism. This is the same dap definition.

        So now you support vernacular school which bloody dont care about putting malaysian interest first ipso facto makes you racist by your own definition. Don’t deviate by asking my position. My position is well known by many and I put it into practice. I can elaborate again once we settle the racists issue. So what if bn is racist. I’m not interested in that. Its your stand and value which is a problem.

        So don’t deviate.

    • In any case, the question is really simple. If you want a one-school system, you have to abolish vernacular schools, sekolah agama and kolej MARA.

      If you only want to abolish vernacular schools, then you’re just a Malay chauvinist.

      • With me you don’t kid around.

        The issue is about racism. You yourself say if anyone who don’t put Malaysian first its racism. By merely uttering im malay malaysian its racism. This is the same dap definition.

        So now you support vernacular school which bloody dont care about putting malaysian interest first ipso facto makes you racist by your own definition. Don’t deviate by asking my position. My position is well known by many and I put it into practice. I can elaborate again once we settle the racists issue. So what if bn is racist. I’m not interested in that. Its your stand and value which is a problem.

        So don’t deviate.

  4. I have to wonder why there is so much focus on the ‘DAP definition’ of racism. The ‘UMNO definition’ or the ‘BN definition’ of racism is so much more overt and much more pernicious. See, for example, the thing I keep mentioning again and again – BN / UMNO does far more to protect vernacular schools than DAP ever could, or would.

    If there were to be serious discussion of the issues, it would be best to lay out what, precisely, is the ‘DAP definition’ of racism. I’ve combed through many posts on this blog, and as far as I can tell the ‘DAP definition’ of racism seems to be this vague nebulous concept that is like a dog-whistle response to whatever DAP says.

    But I don’t think Ellese is interested in serious discussion.

    • With me you don’t kid around.

      The issue is about racism. You yourself say if anyone who don’t put Malaysian first its racism. By merely uttering im malay malaysian its racism. This is the same dap definition.

      So now you support vernacular school which bloody dont care about putting malaysian interest first ipso facto makes you racist by your own definition. Don’t deviate by asking my position. My position is well known by many and I put it into practice. I can elaborate again once we settle the racists issue. So what if bn is racist. I’m not interested in that. Its your stand and value which is a problem.

      So don’t deviate.

      • I don’t support vernacular schools. I understand the reasons why people use them, and I support those reasons. That is Malaysian first, by the way – looking at why my fellow Malaysians do things in order to see what we could do to improve the country.

        So the issue is racism, but you don’t care about BN being racist? So you’re an UMNO apologist, and not honest enough to admit it. I ask your position because you’re not honest enough to state it up front.

        If your positions are complex, and have subtle nuances, I’d like to understand them. So, what do you think of MARA colleges? And BN’s support of vernacular schools?

        • Don’t divert. Just say proponents of vernacular schools from merdeka is racist. Period. This includes DAP.

          • That’s your opinion. I don’t share it. I think it’s wrong. If you want me to agree with you, state your case clearly and answer my questions.

  5. Dear JW and P2bm,

    I wanted to respond to your comments later. But you’ve been writing casting further my write and reputation and thus I had to response. It won’t be as often but will do it albeit more focus.

    • 🙂 You didn’t respond. You posted the same comment 4 times, demanding that I explain myself. It had contradictions in it, so it wasn’t even clear.

      Hey, it’s your blog, it’s where you should be explaining your opinions and positions. I don’t have the luxury of 1,000 words to state my position on vernacular schools in a comment box.

      I could, and maybe I should, state my position clearly and in detail on my own blog. To be honest however, I write about other things in a different way. I might do so at some point if I can think of an interesting story that helps illustrate what my position is.

  6. Let me play Black Hat and behave like Ellese.

    What a piece of garbage written here rehashing baseless rhetorics arguing against vernacular schools that they are a hindrance to national unity. Ellese has no idea what is national unity much less what it takes to get there. If abolishing vernacular schools can attain national unity, I am all for it. But will it? He has a one track mind thinking this is the only thing hindering national unity or is the most important one. Did he ask the question – Does BN want national unity in the first place – since all their actions are contrary to this notion.

    • I think abolishing vernacular schools may improve national unity, slightly. Without reform, what will probably happen however will be that many parents who currently send their children to vernacular schools will send them to vernacular private schools. And we will be back to roughly where we started.

      The vernacular schools serve a demand. To get rid of them the national school system needs to meet this demand.

      • Hey I still don’t forget the original point. You are the one who said anyone who don’t put Malaysian interest first is racist. Don’t divert. Admit you’re wrong or you’re racist. Otherwise I plan to put you together with dishonest p2bm under the idiot post.

        • Again, I think you’re wrong. Place me wherever you wish, but let me remind you that your blog is called the right of reply, not the right of publication.

          If you can’t handle frank criticism, you have no business hosting open discussions on the internet.

          • Bullshit. You can’t even be consistent 2 levels deep. You’re rubbish. I just want to put you in your place among the idiots. Itu aje.

    • You think we don’t have memory ke? We argued dap definition of racism is not putting Malaysian first. I already wrote vernacular schools that you and your racist dap support don’t put Malaysian first. Racist chauvinistic p.. you are. No amount of diversion can take away that fact.

      • As I recall, when you wrote this, I asked you what you thought the DAP definition of racism was. I didn’t get an answer. I asked why it mattered so much what DAP thought. I didn’t get an answer.

        In fact, in your blog, besides accusing DAP of racism, you never quite say how they are racist, beyond the stock answer that they think Muhyiddin is a racist. Even that is not quite true, but I’ll let that pass.

        Latterly, you try to link DAP’s support of vernacular schools to your charge that they are racist. Which is logical – if only it were true. I asked you what examples you have of DAP supporting vernacular schools. I didn’t get an answer.

        • What you say epitomize DAP’s call of racism.

          Lets establish: you say that utterance that I’m “Malay Malaysia” is racist. By not putting Malaysian interest first its racist.

          You argued that politics using racial card is racist. Any call for Malay/ Muslim unity is racist.

          This is the same definition as DAP.

          Are paragraphs 2 and 3 still correct?

          • Of course they are! You think you’ve pointed out a discrepancy in my thesis, but when I ask you to specifically pinpoint it you run away.

            So here we go again – why are DAP racist? And don’t give me the guff you’ve posted so far about vernacular schools etc – you have not even come up with a single example on how DAP supports vernacular schools

          • You’re simply dense. We’re repeating. And I think you’re dishonest.

            You’ve already admit not putting Malaysian first is racist.

            Do you not agree that advocating segregation of our youngs by race is not putting Malaysian first?

          • Yes, I agree with that statement. I disagree that the purpose of vernacular schools is to segregate children by race. So, no, vernacular schools are not racist (in principle, at least).

            So, how about those examples on DAP’s racism?

  7. A one-school system will probably improve national unity. But a school system without vernacular schools but with sekolah agama and kolej MARA is still not a one-school system.

    • “A one-school system will probably improve national unity.”

      could you enlighten us how 1 school improve national unity and what is your understanding of national unity? i know u said probably but i am still curious to know, lets assume no change in the current policy other than 1 school.

      • I mostly agree with the view that a one school system where our children are taught the same values together can only enhance national unity. By this I mean that we can all buy into the fact that Malaysia is our country and that means something. At the moment if this was implemented our children would be brainwashed into the same old racism that we are separate but equal, but at least they would be taught that to be Malaysian is important, and means the same to everyone.

        The fact that if you sit in a classroom, and the teacher says all of you are Malaysian, and you look at your classmates and you see Ali, Ah Chong and Mutu and they are also Malaysian, same as you, that is quite a powerful message I think. If you sit in a classroom and you see only Ali, Ahmad and Mohamad, then you think, well, Ah Chong who goes to the Chinese school is not Malaysian, and neither is Mutu who goes to the Tamil school.

        But, and this is a big but, we don’t stay children forever. When we are adults whatever our background and history, we are accountable for our actions. So if we behave like racist idiots when we grow up, we don’t get to say that we were never taught to be Malaysians in school. That’s just an excuse. Not being taught doesn’t allow us to abrogate our responsibility to act like decent human beings. Ellese thinks we can blame others for not teaching us to behave in a proper fashion – that is exactly what my 3 year old tells me. I tell him it’s an irresponsible thing to say, and he agrees.

        • You better get your facts right. The argument started because JW argued that its correct for dap and him to call anyone not putting Malaysian interest first as racist.

          I pointed out that dap and him supported segregation of our young by race which will never put Malaysian interest first. Thus he and dap are racists to the core.

          There’s much to write but don’t put words into my mouth. I’m handling the racist issue first. I don’t want to argue sikit2 kata I’m racist. This is a stupid argument which I’m tackling.

          Go read how p2bm writes dishonestly in my previous post.

      • The other thing which I urge everyone to consider is, what is our national school system teaching? It doesn’t teach very well – that’s one reason why Chinese schools are popular. Where do you go to learn Mandarin, something so very important in the 21st century economy that there are Chinese language schools in the UK? Our national school system is a dumping ground for students who cannot make it out – that’s why we not only have MARA colleges for smart Malay students, but sekolah wawasan, sekolah sukan etc. All avenues for students not well-served by national education.

        So if I were to choose between achieving national unity by means of a one-school system and allowing our children to gain some skills like command of more than 2 languages, actually I’m inclined to choose the latter. There are many ways of improving national unity, even if one of the easiest is to just make a one-school system.

      • Weird – I accidentally had my WordPress account turned on, and my comment has been held for moderation. Anyway, the first part of my comment is below:

        I mostly agree with the view that a one school system where our children are taught the same values together can only enhance national unity. By this I mean that we can all buy into the fact that Malaysia is our country and that means something. At the moment if this was implemented our children would be brainwashed into the same old racism that we are separate but equal, but at least they would be taught that to be Malaysian is important, and means the same to everyone.

        The fact that if you sit in a classroom, and the teacher says all of you are Malaysian, and you look at your classmates and you see Ali, Ah Chong and Mutu and they are also Malaysian, same as you, that is quite a powerful message I think. If you sit in a classroom and you see only Ali, Ahmad and Mohamad, then you think, well, Ah Chong who goes to the Chinese school is not Malaysian, and neither is Mutu who goes to the Tamil school.

        But, and this is a big but, we don’t stay children forever. When we are adults whatever our background and history, we are accountable for our actions. So if we behave like racist idiots when we grow up, we don’t get to say that we were never taught to be Malaysians in school. That’s just an excuse. Not being taught doesn’t allow us to abrogate our responsibility to act like decent human beings. Ellese thinks we can blame others for not teaching us to behave in a proper fashion – that is exactly what my 3 year old tells me. I tell him it’s an irresponsible thing to say, and he agrees.

    • Racist and not admitting it,

  8. Here’s another contradiction. Ellese thinks vernacular schools promote Chinese and Indian unity at the expense of national unity. I can accept this view, it’s probably correct.

    Then Ellese thinks being Malay first, Malaysian second, promoting Malay unity, in other words, is perfectly fine. However, Malay unity is actually the largest hindrance to building national unity, since it is diametrically opposite!

    So, Ellese, explain this contradiction please. You stated your position, but it’s full of holes.

    • You admit that that your definition of racist is wrong. Admit dap has been wrong. Otherwise you and all DAPs supporters are racists.

      • I already said that I have my own definition of racism. DAP’s definition of racism isn’t wrong either, although it’s a bit different from mine.

        And it’s not inconsistent with respect to vernacular schools, as I have explained. Crucially, you have not explained your position.

        • Bull. Did you not more than once say not putting Malaysian first is racist! Saying I’m Malay Malaysian is racist. You even argued here and elsewhere that its racist when I say its acceptable for Malay/ Muslims to unite.

          Do you want me to quote all that? What rubbish. Dah lupa ke? I haven’t. Don’t deviate. Admit you’re wrong on calling people racist. And don’t be dishonest like p2bm. I can do a post on what you say like p2bm for the world at large. I give you and P2bm liberty to write and here if you’re dishonest, I will whack you upside down.

          • Quote away. You’ll find that I have been entirely consistent. And if you don’t agree, very happy to explain.

          • Don’t divert.

            I repeat since you’re diverting:

            Do you not agree that advocating segregation of our youngs by race is not putting Malaysian first?

  9. There is no unity to agree on what constitute national unity. This is the Malaysian Dilemma.

    You all assume that there is a definite desire to promote national unity but we don’t know what Ellese defines national unity but bashes vernacular schools. Good points on Mara and Religious Schools. Don’t forget the Malay colleges and boarding schools.

    The other major culprit is the Biro Tatatertib Negara who poisons every civil servant’s mind to undermine national unity.

    So what crap is Ellese dishing out? Vernacular schools is the least of the problem. This is an Umno-BN misdirection of the real issues.

    What is national unity?

    Who is responsible for it?

    Who has the mandate to execute the strategies and policies?

    This is just the tip of the iceberg and it cannot be achieved by Najib’s Administration.

    We can’t even get a national agreement on what constitutes national unity, why bother with vernacular schools?

    The entire education system is terribly weak and cannot support whatever national unity is right now.

    Who dares to overhaul the system?

    • Well, I have lots of ideas… 🙂

      • Cool, JW.

        Unfortunately, our Govt doesn’t care what we think, neither does Ellese. Everybody seems big on beating the national unity drum just for the heck of it. Maybe it sounds nice but nobody who can make it happen wants to make it happen.

        Politically, it is a suicide. If Malaysians are united, Malaysians will have too strong a mind that the Govt cannot control. For those who fear Malaysians can think for themselves, a divide and conquer strategy is what they think is best while they speak of national unity, they still want us divided.

        Look at all that is said, done and will be done. Everything contributes to destroying or weakening national unity. Say one thing, do another thing.

        The ones in power will be the one who re-writes history and unity.

  10. I do not see those who said I am a Malay first, Malaysian second as racists. I would say it is just a racial preference. Likewise, I do not see those who send their children to vernacular schools as a mark of reverse- racism. I would categorize it as just educational preferences.

    Do you call me a racist if I send all my children to study Al-Quran/Religion at a ‘Pondok’ or ‘Pesantren’? You shall not! This is because God is not pro of any race. To substantiate it, HE never mention ‘O Arabs or O Whites or O Blacks or O Hindus or O Atheists or O Buddhists or O Muslims or O Christians, etc… HE just said ‘O ye who believes’ or ‘O ye who have faith’. Why is it that? This is because HE wants unity in HIS one world.

    By the way can someone please tell me whether racism, prejudice, discrimination and inequality are thought at vernacular schools or at national schools or at boarding schools or at Harrow and Eton? Granted, most of us are racists in our hearts, but for as long as there is no prejudice and discrimination in our actions, there can still be hope for unity.

    • I’ve no issue if you apply consistently either way.

      • The problem is that YOU don’t apply it consistent at all. You make general sweeping statements to accuse without any basis and without applying to all non-Kebangsaan schools. You never said a word. You completely avoided that because it will knock the leg off your stool and you will have no leg to stand on your argument.

        • You goons. I’ve written about this many times for years already. I don’t wish to because you deviate. There is JW who says not putting Malaysian first is racist. He’s parroting DAP mindset. There’s not even a whimper of criticism by you. Rubbish. Minta evidence konon. You go and google lah. That’s your problem. Always have different standard of burden of proof like in election fraud cases. Always dishonest. You should be ashamed SB4S caught with your pants down too.

    • Hasan, you are absolutely right.

      But Ellese will have us think otherwise building a non-issue on vernacular schools and blame it as obstacle to national unity. He can’t even define national unity let alone propose the abolishment of vernacular schools as the means to achieving it.

    • i tend to agree with hasan, we want less racism,but our action and talk/writes do exact the opposite. and we blame the education system, the vernacular school, the agama school, whatever under the sky. read helen on 1 school n i bn n we can see most of the reaction is as predicted, all sort of excuse.

      i am from vs and i dont recall we know much about race since it is almost 99% chinese, but the moment we step into secondary national school, we start to know everything about racism, prejudice, discrimination and inequality. either because we grown up or that is what actually happen in the school. but most of us get use to it and never become an issue, until the politician and their media talk about it, every minute and every hour.

      i notice most country talk about patriotism, here we talk unity. wtf is that?

      • wtf is that? i try to answer this myself, to many, i believe unity mean to become a ridhuan tee or at least give our vote to bn.

        • Exactly. Many Malaysians are unable to separate out the idea of Malaysia from the government, their race or their religion. Malaysia is not any of these things. Malaysia is our country, a different idea entirely.

        • True. Unity, gratitude and perhaps patriotism are often used by politicians as a blanket phrase of bogyism which can be manipulated for political opportunism. On the other hand, exercising our rights to choose a front in which we believe can forge greater unity does not mean that we are ungrateful to the ruling front or perhaps less patriotic to the country.

        • Hasan

          Fully agree with you. That’s what BN has been playing on, mixing patriotism with supporting BN, confusing everybody. They are doing that to stay in power and hope Malaysians remain blind and stupid.

          JW has a very good point. This Malay first thing is absolute nonsense. How can one pit race against country? Both are important and very different. Perhaps people see race also as a subset of country but I feel that the two should just stay apart. We are just kicking a fuss for a nonsensical issue. It’s like Father before Family. Then you argue isn’t Mother more important? The Family Unit more important? Why pick straws for no reason?

          Malaysia before self. We are all citizens and we should all serve the country.

          And stop debating any race issues. It should be needs first above all else.

          As for race, it should only limit to the pride of the culture, not skin color. Pride to be shared, not comparative superiority.

          These three cannot be pitted against each other. What a silly nonsense to demand which comes first. Crazy.

          With this, we will have no more debate on this again and Ellese will not have to write his opinions about DAP being racist and Umno, MIC, MCA and Perkasa not racist (since he remains inconspicuously silent about them.)

          Waste of time. Can’t help move the country forward. Then again, what can our little debate here do for the good of the country except we have saved some trees and done it eco friendly.

          Perhaps instead of beating the vernacular school issue, it should be how the overall education system can be improved to forge national unity and give the definition clarity before we begin else we will be fighting with Ellese on his blinkered view and he accuse us of being idiots.

    • I think racial preferences, as you term them, are in themselves racist. They may not be harmful (so goes the thinking in Malaysia), but they colour one’s perception. Certainly such words should not be coming out of the mouth of the Deputy Prime Minister.

      Being ‘Malay first’ is effectively the same as Chinese employers preferring to employ ‘Chinese first’. This is something Malays decry all the time as examples of Chinese racism. It’s a racial preference right? Not harmful, right?

      ‘Malay first’ is simply the first step on a slippery slope. No one should think taking that first step is harmless.

      • JWT…. We have heard the term ‘I am an African American’. They are homogenized people and have coterminus cultural identity and very patriotic too. Are they obsessed with and practice of racism?

        • Are they American first or African first? If you asked most African Americans this, they would find the question meaningless. They are American, citizens of the USA and patriots. They are culturally distinct, but they don’t see that the fact has anything to do with the other fact.

          When Malays say, ‘I am Malay first, then Malaysian’, they don’t mean the same thing. They mean that Malaysia is less important than the Malay community. And also that Malaysia should be shaped around a Malay identity. It’s not patriotic at all – much the opposite in fact.

          • The government’s version of national unity is to be united behind them. Anyone who is against them is not patriotic.

            It amazes me that a bunch of crooks and liars can say that and people actually believe that. Malaysia is not a country of crooks and liars. David Ben-Gurion once said that ‘every country needs its burglars and prostitutes’. True, but they shouldn’t be in power.

          • Agree. Nationality should be unitary and homogenized. But the crux of the matter here is we do not have a coterminus cultural identity. Hence, we celebrate so many new years.

            So, may I ask you, what harm can it inflict if we say we are Chinese or Malay or Indian first, etc… then Malaysian, as a means to define or clinging to our real identities which are not hostile to the country?

            Annoyance and worries, may be…. but certainly not racism obsessed, I think.

          • Good point. The US makes people want to be proud to call themselves Americans, not German American, Italian American or Afro American. Just American.

            Malaysians outside of Malaysia calls themselves Malaysians and proudly too. That should be the way when inside Malaysia but we are faced with many bigoted challenges of people who has never been abroad and felt proud to call themselves Malaysians instead of their ethnic group.

            Calling Malay first, Malaysian second, on the surface is not racist. But what does it mean really? The Malay identity is more important or more superior? That makes the difference between racist and not racist. Nobody ever came forth to declare what that means and Najib is too weak to step up to his definiton of 1Malaysia.

            Regardless what anybody says, I am Malaysian first and last. My ethnic group and culture is something that enriches Malaysia, not to be superior over others. My vision is to make Malaysia great and make everybody, regardless of race and creed, to be the best they can for the betterment of Malaysia.

            So am I racist or a hopeless idealist? It is Malaysia against the world, not Malaysians against each other.

            Reading the news these days makes me sad when the Govt plays up one race against another and then say national unity and reconciliation at the same time.

            This puts Malaysia on a hopeless place. So who says the Govt wants national unity? Baloney!

          • Rubbish. How can you support segregation by race and put Malaysian first? Tak masuk Akal.

          • Likewise, I would say I am a Malaysian. Similarly, I am a Muslim, not Malay Muslim or Indian Muslim or Chinese Muslim or a moderate Muslim or a Muslim hadari, etc…

          • It would be painfully difficult or perhaps impossible for one coming from very mixed parentage, say 2 or 3 generations down, to classify himself/herself by race. This category of people are actually increasing in number in Malaysia. We do not realise this situation as a readily visible fact because, when forced to make a choice for example when he/she is required to fill up a form etc, he/she makes an arbitrary choice of “race” based on either the father or mother. But this choice is false and artificial because a race should not be based on personal choice as it has to do with a biological fact. Much has been talked about Mahathir who “chose” to be an Indian while at medical school and then a “Malay” in later life. In fact UMNO is infested with “Mamaks” who biologically are not Malays – but this is only one example and we have many within the other communities too in Malaysia. So if we prefer to be rational rather than emotional this ‘racist & racism’ question is really not relevant. Unlike “race”, a citizenship and nationality is completely free to be chosen. If you don’t wish to be a Malaysian nobody is going to stop you from adopting other citizenships. To be a Malaysian there are certain things to be noted (read the Constitutions to get some better ideas) for example we have Malay as the National Language, we have the Malays Rulers and the culture going with it, we have Islam as the Religion of the Federation etc.
            In Indonesia & Thailand also in the Phillipines, they have not much problem with the question of race as all their citizens adopt local names and they have single stream education especially at the early formative stage. We can be like that too but we can’t have the cake and at the same time still have it too. If we want it both ways we will remain split which is not a clever choice as Malaysia matures. Perhaps we should be like the 3 above mentioned countries.

          • hussin, thus the first question you shd ask is what make the chinese malaysian so unique, do we have a distinctive dna compare with chinese from other country?

            without the exist of non malay (shd all become malaysian), what is the need to define malay, if there is no malay, then who umno is fighting for?

            duh!

          • @HY of June 9, 2013 at 11:31am,

            The question occured to me too when I wrote my comments – “…what make the chinese malaysian so unique,…a distinctive dna compare with chinese from other country?” you posed to me to ask. So, I am asking that same question to you now.

            I am also volunteering an answer. The DNA, in this particular case, doesn’t decide the uniqueness but it’s more the attitude of the then Chinese insisting on being Chinese in culture & language beside wanting to be Malaysians as well at Merdeka as the result of which, to be fair, the Indians then were given similar treatment. It was also the attidute of the Malays then, willing to allow this compromise perhaps in the hope, through time just like the evolution of the Baba & Nyonya in Melaka, that later assimilation will take place naturally. The birth of organisations like Zong Dong ensures that that wishful hope will not materialise in the near term.

          • hussin, can agree, so the next question is what shape the attitude, in fact i already spell out the reason, if you choose to ignore it, fine. is this a good or bad policy? honestly i dont know. one language and one whatever seem to be the best solution in the past, now i am not that sure, most countries move toward multi-culturalism and multi-languages, which malaysia were one of the pioneer and initiator, i hope we can carry on, and finetune accordingly.

            i dont know how many baba nyonya you know, my sister in law from melaka is one, one of my uncle were raised in a baba nyonya family, the evolution didnt happen. i hope we all in this blog should have the intellectual honesty to tell why.

          • HY, you asked “what shape the attitude?”. My honest answer is based on my observation and perception which you may not agree with. Sincerely, I think, the Chinese “attitude” was shaped by their “confidence” derived from the relatively bigger numbers (as compared to the very few Chinese in Indonesia & Thailand than in Malaysia even to this day) of Chinese influencing the local economy then immediately prior to the Merdeka. That confidence gave rise to the attitude. Later with further backing from various Chinese Associations, Clubs & Organisations including Dong Zong the confidence was further strengthened to support the attitude which perhaps even helps to reverse the Baba & Nyonya positive Evolution which you had just mentioned.
            But I don’t think this trend is healthy or necessary even if we desire to maintain our multi-cultural & multi-lingual Malaysian face. Perhaps some effort in moderation is needed. We also will have to have a re-look at our Constitutions as I mentioned earlier for some points to be noted.

            Don’t overly worry about the Constitutional definition of a Malay – that Malay as defined in our Constitutions is not the biological “race” which I talked about earlier as given and cannot be changed by choice. Mahathir & many people like him are constitutional Malays and so are all the Mamaks who are biologically of Indian “race”. And don’t talk about UMNO alone as the BN, previously the Alliance, has the MCA & MIC plus other parties now to represent together all the Malaysians. The term Malay in the Constitutions is actually inclusive and through time we can make it even more so, encompassing all the citizens of Malaysia. Well, if the people of Thailand are called Thais, why can’t one day later the people of Malaysia be called Malays? And so we close our racist & racism arguments?

          • By the way HY, as an addition to my last, don’t worry about Chinese losing their indentity and for that matter anyone else, the Malay (biological race) has been moderated/diluted to become the Constitutional Malay and any Malaysian can now choose to be one!

          • Hussin,

            Yes your observation of the number and economy are absolutely part of the cause, and also the role of Alliance in accordance with the spirit of our constitution. However I believe there are more, for example, freedom of religion (policies or otherwise). There are many Chinese that migrate and naturally assimilated into Philippines and Thailand society because in close proximities with China, many revolt and traders of imperial China from different era chose to move into border countries, and married to local were common, hence assimilation is not something foreign to the Chinese. And interestingly both nationalist Plaek Pibunsongkhram and Jose Rizal are either half or less than half ethnic Chinese. On the other hand, we know many Muslim have a hard time to integrate into both Thailand and Philippines even until today, what is your view on this? And I believe our definition of Malay touch on religion as well, no? So could it be one of the major blockages that prevent assimilation and integration apart from political agenda? And why Singapore could succeed even though the majority is Chinese, not to mention economy prowess?

            About this racial and biological thingy, I think many Southern Chinese might genetically closer to Malay as compare to Northern Chinese, the problem is even the many educated horde also indulge in this stupid political game, and we know who benefit the most from such absurdity.

            The Achilles Heel of Ellese is he is trying to justify Umno/BN policies/action by telling us everyone (in Malaysia at least) did the same, which I can agree to a certain extent, however we should also acknowledge the fact that PR is trying to move away from racial politics, which is a good sign.

          • HY, very interesting that as you said Singapore seems to be successful in its integration & assimilation effort despite the Chinese being in the majority (to be read as the Malays/Muslims being in the minority). However similar minorities of Muslims in Southern Thailand & the Phillipines, as you said it, do not seem to achieve similar successful results. I am unable to conclusively say what the determining factor is as I am no expert in this. Somehow in general there is no problem of integration & assimilation in Indonesia, by far the largest country in this region in terms of area and population which you did not mention. So, religion, though many would like it to loom in appearence as a major deciding factor or stumbling block to prevent assimilation, may NOT be so after all. Perhaps, as a matter of discussion, I can volunteer to say that when one adopts a religion officially it does not mean one will also religiously practise it when in complete privacy – I have known many “cultural or ritual or ceremonial or official” Muslims (or Christians or whatever) who do not actually practise the religion privately. So, probably I am right if I were to say that the Religion (Islam) as covered in the Constitutional definition of a Malay is NOT and should NOT be used as an excuse or obstacle to being a Constitutional Malay which is, as I said earlier, a very inclusive term which can be chosen at will by any Malaysian who wishes to. You earlier mentioned, if I am not mistaken, about Abdullah Tee/Tee Abdullah who could be regarded as a Constitutional Malay and there many others like him besides the Mamaks I mentioned previously. Tee Abdullah happens to muster and practise Islam much better than I do but I have many friends both Indians (not originally Mamak) and Chinese who convert to Islam but I doubt if they practise it fully yet their off-springs are all Constitutional Malays. This constitutional definition of a Malay can actually play a very constructive role in achieving our national integrity and unity if we really look at it positively. We need to open up our minds and think out of the box now.

          • Hussin, maybe my writing is not clear, there is different degree of integration and assimilation, in an ascending order, I would say Singapore only embark in very mild integration similar to Malaysia, then Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand. My point is Chinese are much easier to assimilate and integrate if compare against Muslim (not a matter of good, bad or value judgment, we are just difference) by looking at what happen in some countries, thus I guess the reverse could be valid as well, it is not that simple to assimilate and integrate oneselves into a Muslim society unless converted, but somehow i don’t see Muslim “mendakwah” (in modern days and in relatively secular muslim countries) as aggressive as the Evangelist, thus I belive most Muslim prefer harmony and peaceful co-exitence rather than to convert others. Wrt Indonesia, I could be wrong but my impression is that religion never play a heavy role along the years in most Indonesian lives, I think they are one of the freest country in term of religion, until recently.

            I don’t agree with how you inteprete “inclusive” in the context of our constitution, it is inclusive solely to Muslim. Your out of the box contention is strange, I like your open minded (pretence or no I don’t know) but I don’t think many share your view, even among Muslim.

          • @HY of 10 June,2013 at 4:04pm,

            Your last paragraph is of note. I certainly did not expect you to agree with my interpretation of “inclusiveness” pertaining to the Constitutions’ Malay definition. Neither am I surprised at your doubt about the possibility of others including Muslims sharing my views. “Out-of-Box” & open-minded views are seldom readily accepted especially when first expressed by someone so inconspicuous. But I do believe that the Constitutional definition of a Malay can be beneficial for our national cohesion one day as secularity progresses more and more in phase with modernity and practical theocracy receding into the background. By then, generally, the religious factor becomes a mere “decorative or ceremonial and official” mark of belonging to the group with most followers of the said religion not caring to actually practice it. Do we deny seeing the current trend that it is already happening now if we are sincere in our observation? Forget about what the politicians otherwise say and what they would want you to think.

          • Hussin, I am amaze at your optimism because I think the “definition” has the inclination to work the other way round, and I don’t read how you could establish the narrative that this “definition” could lead us to secularity progress, yeah it is exciting and sensational to read statement like “Constitutional definition of a Malay can be beneficial for our national cohesion one day as secularity progresses more and more ….” but it seem the reality indicate otherwise, are we moving toward more secular or less secular, I opine the latter (secular is better or worst compare to theocracy is another topic).

            Being a Chinese (cultural sense), I find it hard to subscribe to the thought that we need religion, but I understand from one Islamist (solely his opinion) that Malay, unlike Chinese and Indian, are without lengthy history and civilization, and Islam as a great religion play a significant role to fulfill such spiritual needs, the same happen to many, for instance when CCP (China) realize Marxism fail them, they revive to Confucianism and the 4 books 5 classic, and they also use similar concept by constructing a “Han Chinese” to maintain the coherence and legitimacy, but for how long? I think your view has too many contradictions, but who could refute a “out of the box” suggestion? I can only say, thanks for the very creative thought 🙂

          • OK HY, I must thank the bloghost, Ellesse, for condoning our lengthy discussion which perhaps has gone beyond topic. I persevere not to test his patience but just to maintain the continuity of the discussion. However, I am now readying myself towards “an agreement to disagree” with you, HY.

            Just a point of clarification quoting HY “Being a Chinese (cultural sense), I find it hard to subscribe to the thought that we need religion, but I understand from one Islamist (solely his opinion) that Malay, unlike Chinese and Indian, are without lengthy history and civilization, and Islam as a great religion play a significant role to fulfill such spiritual needs,……”

            I am wondering if HY correctly represents, as quoted above, the thoughts of most Malaysian Chinese who certainly still find religion a need. Besides Taoism & Buddhism, many of them claim Christianity as their religion though not many practise them like going to the church etc except for ceremonial events. It is also not correct to assume that just because, unlike the Chinese, the Malays do not have a lengthy history & civilisation they end up with a spiritual “vacuum” that needs to be filled by Islam as a great religion. Firstly the Malay ancestors were not Muslims but were Hindus well before the local history was ever written and Islam only came later. Secondly, just like the Chinese, many of the Malays who call themselves Muslims now are not strictly practising the religion except for ceremonial purposes. This trend of relegating religions to the merely ceremonial or, at best, decorative and OFFICIAL purposes (whether a positive development or otherwise is a separate topic) is expanding in phase with modernity which, as time goes by, favours secularism more than theocracy despite whatever political effort being used to exploit the situation to win votes. I did propose earlier that we disregard this political exploitation which to me is mere play-acting and we concentrate more on the actual trend.

            My thesis about the Constitutional definition of a Malay being regarded as a unifying factor is based on the belief that the above-mentioned trend will be expanding and strengthening with time so as to make matters of religion or choice of a religion NEUTRAL & HARMLESS to Malaysians. Thus the religious factor/element in that Constitutional definition of a Malay will not cause “harms” to the “cultural ego” of Malaysians who will all be then called Malays (like as I said earlier, Thais in Thailand) when they meet OFFICIALLY the Constitutional criteria.

            OK HY, I am now ready to agree to disagree with you. Thanks.

          • Just for discussion sake, if religion is not a criteria, and if HY is a ‘Constitutional Malay’ as per Hussin’s outside the box, can HY [or is lineage] one day becomes the PM or CM or TYT or perhaps HRH? 😉

          • oops… CM memang boleh, I mean MB.

          • Hussin, i thought we already agree to disagree from the very beginning? LOL. Ellese is busy so now his blog is on autopilot, as long as we preserve a certain level of civility, i think he is okay one.

            I wrote all this for discussion sake (hasan word), or play devil advocate or whatever, not necessary meant we disagree to each other view. i more or less can guess your reaction and that is why i add in phrase like cultural sense, solely his opinion etc in the hope that you dont take offence of what i wrote, simply because i know hussin might not a hasan 🙂

            Will continue….

          • hasan,

            Thanks. Actually even MB is possible as we are talking about the Malay as defined by the Constitutions and I think the States’ Undang2 Tubuh (States’ Constitutions) do not differentiate the Malay as MB unless that Malay is MURTAD because Islam (at the very least OFFICIALLY) is a criteria as in the Constitutional definition of a Malay. If that Malay/Muslim is a religious hypocrite privately nobody will know but can still be MB if elected.

            However HRH (Sultans) tak bolehlah unless through royal births which I won’t discuss further.

          • The Malaysian identity cannot be based solely on the Malay identity. That would, indeed, be quite racist. I hasten to add that it cannot also be solely based on the Chinese or Indian identity either. Why should the Chinese give up their distinct cultural heritage in favour of Malay cultural heritage?

            The key here is that a Malaysian identity needs to be based on the cultures of all the ethnic groups that make up Malaysia. In the first instance, that means we cannot say that a particular set of cultural heritage is not Malaysian. It is all Malaysian. That is our strength, and that is why Malaysian culture is far more interesting and appealing that the monoculture in Indonesia that suppressed the cultural expression of its ethnic Chinese citizens.

          • Answer the question on racism first.

            Anyway you’ve no clue what’s in our constitution. What’s the most important function of our sultan where the sultans have been conferred utter discretion by our constitution? They’re not subject to conventions to follow the government of the day.

  11. Ellese, posting the same response asking me to say something is… well, childish. It just means you have run out of things to say.

    I, on the other hand, have a question. How do you square your tacit support for kolej MARA with your opposition to vernacular schools? Your blog is silent on this issue (purposely, I suspect).

    • Ellese, is “kolej MARA” a vernacular school or some sort of a university-level college similar to the other university colleges? I am sure it is not dealing with young children at their tender, formative stage which will be decisive for weaning purposes or am I wrong?.

      • So racial segregation is not ok in primary school, but ok after the age of 16?

        Either it’s ok or it’s not. I remind you that Chinese and Indian kids do NOT get to go to Kolej MARA, but (in theory at least), Malay kids can attend vernacular schools.

        • Pupils at the primary schools are at their tender & formative age – the age when they are most “impressionable” for the correct foundation-building in unity & togetherness. After 16, they have developed the mental baggage which will be very difficult, if possible at all, to discard without prejudice. Of course, disbelievers and doubters will deny this as a fact but they are free to retain that attitude as they wish.

          • Do you remember how callow you were at 16? I do. Most 16 year olds are still children. Even 18 year olds, the theoretical age of majority, are mostly still children.

            Anyway you are arguing that racial segregation is not ok up to the age of 12 but then perfectly fine after the age of 16. This is… well, ridiculous, not to mention hypocritical.

            Admit it – you wish to remove a Chinese and Indian privilege while retaining a Malay privilege. That would, at least, be intellectually honest.

          • You support segregation of race since young and now argue like this. Pathetic and utterly rubbish.

          • Wrong again. I do not support vernacular schools. I support the right of Malaysian parents to educate their children in the language of their choice, and agree with them that vernacular schools are the best way to do this in Malaysia.

            I have said in the past that vernacular schools create racist outcomes. However, the way to fix this is to fix vernacular schools, not ban them.

          • Don’t divert. Answer first. I repeat since you’re diverting:

            Do you not agree that advocating segregation of our youngs by race is not putting Malaysian first?

    • I’ve written on this before you goons. I can even tell you about my children’s education. Many here have read before. What I refuse is to indulge in your deceit manner of argument. Admit you’re a racist by your own definition. Otherwise ill treat you like idiots in the past.

      You seem intelligent but you’re dishonest here. I won’t give you any modicum of respect until you have integrity.

      • I could probably survive I think 🙂

        Again, I think you’re wrong, and your constant evasions of my questions make that more likely.

        Your blog does not specifically mention kolej MARA that I can see. At least link to some posts if they do. That’s what a good host might do, if the discussion was indeed of interest.

        • Why should I answer you when you have two opposite positions? You’re diverting all the time.

          • Oh? I’ve answered all your questions. Who’s diverting?

            I don’t think my positions should remain static in the face of evidence that they are wrong. That would be silly. I reserve the right to change my mind, and will always state where I have. When faced with what you say though, I see no reason to change my mind. You do not provide evidence.

          • I repeat since you’re diverting:

            Do you not agree that advocating segregation of our youngs by race is not putting Malaysian first?

          • Answered already, So, where’s your opinions on kolej Mara? Support or don’t support?

          • Not yet.

            If not putting Malaysian first is racist, any advocate or supporter of segregation of our youngs by race is also racist since its not putting Malaysian first.

            Do you not agree with this?

            Ellese

          • Don’t divert. We’ve just begun.

            I repeat do you not agree that those who advocate and support our children by race is racist?

            Ellese

          • Answered already, at least twice that I can think of. What are your opinions on Kolej Mara?

          • You haven’t. I’ve asked for times already.

          • Answered. Twice in this post alone – June 11 9.43, June 11 10.43. Where are your posts, comments, positions on Kolej Mara?

  12. I’m informing others that I’ve temporarily suspended p2bm. As I think he has a right to publication, ill post all his comments under “not so proud to be Malaysian” post when I’m free. He has found to be dishonest in many occasions.

    JW will likely be gathered together.

    This argument started because of racism. Its now established that to dap racism is when you don’t put Malaysian first in line with its malaysian malaysia concept and epitomized by JW’s thinking. They then ask me to justify and I subsequently posted why advocates of vernacular schools do not put Malaysian interest first. Ipso facto they are racist according to dap definition.

    Now they pretend that this was not an issue. I’ve enough. Wasting my time with dishonest argument. I’ve repeated this many times. I will not entertained them until they admit either they are equally racist or that dap racist definition is wrong and should be condemned. No two ways on this. I cannot tolerate hypocritical inconsistent dishonest argument.

    • Another big hole in your thesis is that BN is a far, far, far more effective champion of vernacular schools than DAP could ever be. Logically, this must be true, DAP never governed a state till 2008.

      Repeating the most recent example – before GE13, Najib announced that he was upgrading the status of 2 vernacular colleges to universities. DAP never, ever did anything so drastic.

      • Hey. A racist like you cannot complain others being racist. Just shut up.

        • So… you’re refusing to answer my questions because you disagree with me? How very mature.

          • You’re dishonest with your argument. You don’t deserve respect.

          • I don’t need your respect. Just interested to know what examples, if any, you have of DAP supporting vernacular schools.

          • Then don’t complain.

            I repeat since you’re diverting again:

            Do you not agree that advocating segregation of our youngs by race is not putting Malaysian first?

          • Answered already. So, examples showing DAP’s support for vernacular schools please?

            By the way, you keep asking me the same question, I keep answering it. I ask you three or four different questions, not one speck of evidence.

          • Advocating vernacular schools are no different from having Mara, Malay Colleges, Religious Schools, where only 1 type of people attend.

            Putting Malaysia First by stating Malaysian First, Malay Second is merely a statement of little value.

            But stating Malay First, Malaysian Second appears racially bigotted.

            Ellese is merely using a narrow view to slam vernacular schools without slamming Mara, Malay Colleges and Religious Schools where they all have 1 type of people.

            He is now very clear that if you support vernacular schools, then you are a racist. It is not putting Malaysia first. Which means if you support Mara, Malay Colleges, Religious Schools, you are also a racist.

            What’s the point in arguing this? I submit that there are needs to be met at the education level for having Mara, Malay Colleges, Religious Schools and vernacular schools. And parents can choose where they place their children.

            Putting Malaysia first covers many things. Are you willing to pay more tax? Are you going to support higher petrol price? Are you willing to accept GST? Are you willing to give the Govt more money to build the country?

            If you say no, then you are not putting Malaysia first. Is this true? Then you are a racist?

            As long as you pit one race against another, you are a racist.

            What does it mean then if one says he is a Malay First, another says he is an Indian First? Do they mean their ethnic group is better or superior than the others? If yes, he is a racist. If no, he is hugging his race issues in preference over national matters. And this can conflict with others doing just the same for their ethnic group. There we will get the racial conflict. Then what is 1Malaysia? It encourages racial conflict.

            This is where Ellese claims he is not a racist and others like DAP is a racist and Ibrahim Ali is a saint?

            If anyone rants against another race, he is racist. Doesn’t matter if he comes from DAP or BN. But to lump a person as the entire group is not fair unless it comes from the leaders.

            I am quite done with this topic as it is going no where and I guess it is intended to go no where. More for Ellese getting proud he is slamming someone on his stance that DAP are racist as much as he is silent that Umno and Perkasa are equally guilty along the same reasoning as he makes out to be.

            The sole purpose of this discourse is to justify Ellese position that DAP are racist and BN, Perkasa, Umno, etc are not. And it does not matter what anyone says because they will be called idiot, stupid, racist, dumb, lazy, you name it and Ellese remains the saint.

            Totally impractical with no discussion how to make national unity work. Rather beat the dead horse to satisfy Ellese and accept his views that if the Chinese and Indian give up vernacular schools as spouted by Mansor Puteh which is sheer crap, then lo and behold national unity is achieved. Dong Jong must shut down and we should have more Perkasa instead.

            So much for muhibbah and acceptance that the variety of culture and religions enrich Malaysia. Let’s have Ellese definition of national unity. More Mara, Malay Colleges, Religious Schools and solely Sekolah Kebangsaan and shut down all vernacular schools.

            While on that end, register Perkasa and close down DAP as political parties. Then all troubles will go away.

            Along the same lines, Chinese and Indian ethnic groups should not pay taxes but Malays should pay all. This will avoid any racist demands in the future.

            What type of Malaysia will we end up with? Not one that either of us will want to live in nor be proud of, for sure.

          • If not for your shallow partisan analysis, we could have gone into what it means to be a Malaysian and the point of our social cohesion.

            Both of you have avoided this discussion knowing full well you can’t justify racism as propounded by dap. And pleaselah your thinking on how I will write clearly shows your knee deep analysis befitting your so call ability. We could have gone deeper into british malaya history and then the Barnes, Razak and Fenn Wu report and then kit siang’s “racist” view. And most of all we could see kit siangs gobbledegook justification on vernacular schools.

            So go on justify racism based on Chinese language culture history and tradition being superior. Other races cannot justify like this coz its racism and they’re not from this super race. And you think I don’t see where you’re coming from.

            Again rubbish write by both p2bm and JW. All I want you to do is to reassess this racist propaganda and find an amicable solution, but you both can’t even get off the first base. Shameful.

            Ellese

          • For the first time, I read that Ellese is looking for an amicable solution while slamming vernacular schools. I thought your solution is to close them down since vernacular schools are racist as you call them.

            What more is there to discuss if that’s the only position tenable?

            What LimKS and other say about such things does not represent all Chinese, Indian or Malay. What Ibrahim Ali spew is crap, but he does not represent all Malays either. Crap is crap. But you can’t say all Malays are like Ibrahim Ali. It is just him. Everyone who wants their way will justify it. That’s part of keeping status quo or maintaining your position.

            It will be much better to build the model of national unity in education rather than slamming vernacular schools. You kept very silent on Mara, Malay Colleges and Religious Schools which I contend they are organized along ethnic groups too and suffer from the same fate as you described for vernacular schools.

            We should look at the positives and not the negatives which will cause us to miss the tress for the forest.

          • All I want from you and jw is to acknowledge that our politicians and their blind supporters have used the perfidious racist slew as they like ikut suka hati. I want to show they are as racists as they have called others. I have been called racist ikut suka hati dia orang. They have absolutely no clue what has transpired. Why we have segregated schools in the first place. What was the purpose of it. Why we are now we are. What we have agreed to compromise. And even how to move forward by giving and taking.

            If you had acknowledged JW’s thinking as wrong and consequently DAP’s then we could have moved forward. You know what? I really don’t mind if you support dap ke pr ke or even umno ke or bn ke. Where I have problem is when most decide a right and wrong based on who they support rather than what is being done. If you do it its wrong but if i do the same its right. its the same with this racist taunt. I’ve repeated this many times before for years. You and jw are still in this mindset. If only once you can admit what is so obvious, I would have given you proper decorum. For your information many who are commenting regularly here are pr supporters. If you deal with HY, Hassan SB4S and S18, you will realise you can go deep and in fact learn a thing or two. That’s what we should seek. Self enlightenment. But 95% of the times we have garbage views. And my personality I give them back garbage.

            I’m learning less and less now coz most of the issues are repetitive. Mind you including the election issues. We’ve dealt with it so many times but most don’t know what the issues are pun. Thus we focus on issues which politicians want to keep alive and not resolving anything. Politicians want us to think they are indispensable. By supporting them all the issues will be resolved. They forget we have access to knowledge that for hundreds or thousands of years human beings have been playing the same game over and over.

            What surprised and disappointed me is that you should have seen this. Instead you choose to argue unacceptably like politicians which I can’t and will not accept.

          • good read n interesting debate,

          • Evidence. Without evidence, you’re just like the politicians who spew their racist slurs ikut suka hati.

    • Congratulations. Now that you have a full dose of your own medicine, you are finally regulating your comment page again.

      Can’t take your own medicine eh?

      You have consistently been badgering others without your own position being supported by any solid basis but sheer opinions yet you can accuse others and never your ownself.

      Cheers. Time for my 10 year old Merlot …. 😉

      • I don’t regulate. Ill still publish all your comments under the idiot dishonest post. I’m not a bit worry coz you can never go 2 or 3 level deep. When stuck you will always say its private info lah and cannot disclose. You don’t realise how rubbish you are and I purposely allowed SB4s make a fool of you.

        • Your right to do what you want with your blog.

          But to point out a few inconsistencies.

          a) you say you don’t regulate – to regulate means you filter and decide what you do with the item at hand – you are regulating because you are going to moderation mode

          b) re-publishing at another post means you are deciding where to re-post, regulating where what can and cannot be said

          c) what you are saying you are not doing is censoring comments meaning you are not deleting what you don’t like.

          So when others do it, it is not fair. When you do it, it is fair. All they do is re-post your comments at another place, maybe not visible, but technically is still a re-post away from the original locations.

          To be consistent, you either let it be or do your full moderation. You claim right to reply which implies viewing too. When you move the comments, it is no longer a reply but a collection of blabber.

          I rest my case. Your blog, your right 😉

          • Don’t talk to me about inconsistencies when you’re never one. You change goal posts many times.

            Stick to one. You see yourself JW mindset which you don’t want to address. This parrots DAP. My problem with you is your selectivity which is dishonest. You can argue its secret information. Never admitting any position.

  13. So, no right of reply then! 🙂

    • Where got right to reply one to you, JW Tan? The right was removed – donno by whom…..Yours @JW Tan of June 6, 2013 at 5:51pm has no way of replying – the “reply” button was absent or removed. Will keep the reply to myself then.

    • I’ve never not publish any persons reply unless it falls within the very few limits in my initial post. Just that ill treat you as idiots. I give you a special idiot post. I will not allow you to divert. You can’t fool people all the time with inconsistent argument.

  14. 🙂 Blame the host, not me. It’s not my blog. I think Ellese only set the reply tree settings 3 posts deep.

    Just reply to the post before that lah, then all the conversations are all in a row.

  15. To be fair to the author, Ellese, on this posting, I share my candid comments.

    1. His point that there will always be more Malays in Public Sector and Others in Private Sector is an observation. His conclusion that each behave accordingly to promote their own is also an opinion and a behavioral observation. Since no specific studies of a sufficiently large base was conducted, there is no imperial gauge. Then I will respect his opinion. But I do note that there are many Malays in the Private Sector who are very capable. Also my opinion and observation.

    2. All articles quoted including Ellese own below them are also opinions. And I respect them and read them as such. They are the authors own observations. Very good. But is it accurate? In part, I shall grant them. But they have oversimplified and blamed the wrong parties.

    3. Ellese keeps harping on DAP being racist and that DAP blames others for being racists. No reference to support, just like Tun M’s piece just accuse in the blind. Who can’t do that? JW and I have always demanded Ellese to substantiate such accusations but he refused. Conclusion? Fictitious issue, just trying to mislead. I must admit DAP has many people speaking in public and sometimes, the main speakers are undermined by bigots in FB and Twitter. I have not read so I am just making a broad general statement that there is the possibility. Show me the reference and I will accuse or vindicate.

    4. I AGREE with Ellese that there is a TRUST issue that must be established from young but I disagree with the methods. In East Malaysia, they have the same education system but the people are more harmonized than we can ever be today in Peninsula. You can talk to each other without suspicion, eat with each other with no big brother watching, do things together with no worries, have a mosque, a temple or a church all over the place with no bias, do your business in whichever way you want without laws to stifle you. The East Malaysians have a higher level of trust with each other in daily lives. But that is different when it comes to Politics.

    5. There should always be a freedom to conduct schools, be it Kebangsaan, vernacular, religious, boarding, Malay colleges, Mara, home school, etc. As long as they inculcate the right behaviors, teachings, etc for the harmony and unity of Malaysians, they all fulfill their role to meet certain needs of the community.

    6. The parents play a very important role to groom their children’s world views and not relegate to the teachers and school system (they are very important, don’t get me wrong). Do not surrender to others what you must do yourselves.

    7. Mixing children of all ethnic groups together has merits but does not guarantee harmony and unity. These are just outward environmental issues Unity and Harmony are values, not about making friends. If they see the adults behave wrong, the children will adopt the same.

    My point is that national unity is about values, not race, not schools. It must be shared, taught and acted at all levels, from family, Govt, community, schools, etc. The practice and policies must demonstrate the values. When the people sees/perceives the Govt not practicing national unity values, the people will react accordingly and national unity down the sewers. When the children sees/perceives the parents and teachers not behaving harmoniously with others, they will learn to do the same.

    On this point, I see the PR gaining greater support than BN.

    BN – Malay/Chinese/Indian/etc – accommodate and share their own agreed pies and be happy with the cut decided by Umno

    PR – everybody share the national pie according to needs, values and abilities assisting the less fortunate regardless of race and religion

    • I’m allowing this coz its reasonable though I don’t entirely agree. This is a serious issue but I need to get this denial syndrome and inconsistent application of racism out.

      • It is fine coz we are not expected to agree to everything. This is our freedom to choose. Just don’t force others to agree with you when they don’t.

  16. Dear Ellese,

    Did you delete some of the comments? I could not find some comments which I have read that were posted earlier. Or could it be my imagination as I visit quite a number of blogs.

  17. Dear Ellese,

    I cannot find some of the comments that I have read that were posted earlier here. Did you delete them?

  18. Test. Ellese.. Are you in moderation mode?

  19. The sooner y’all realize both BN and DAP are racists, the better it is for all.

    BN have policies that are considered racists but what separates the two is that while DAP is one dimensional – Chinese – BN is multi-dimensional, ie they implement ‘racist’ policies across the board.

    Similarly, BN and DAP have bigot stances. Again, the difference is that DAP is yet again one dimensional – Christian evangelists – whereas BN is multi-dimensional.

    • s18, i reply here.

      from wiki about philippines “From grades 1-3, students will be taught using their mother tongue,” “Chinese schools add two additional subjects to the core curriculum, Chinese communication arts and literature. Some also add Chinese history, philosophy and culture, and Chinese mathematics. ” however i dont know if there are public or private funded. china tibet and xinjiang school medium is native language. more and more han language subject at secondary and college level.

      btw, its been a while never hear from u, similar to ellese but a reverse role, i am still fighting/arguing non stop, i read u in that wakaka blog, i try what u did but i think i gonna give up, perhaps u can do better. however i dun think they represent what dap stand for, i rarely read dap member criticise pkr to that extreme. maybe u know something i don’t.

      on behalf of ellese / hasan n the rest, glad to read from u.

      • Yeah… I smiled when I saw S18’s comment at wakakaka… I am glad indeed.

        • Hasan,

          That KT fella wants to a political spinner but fails miserably.

          He picked and choose lines of my post and replied to it. Dia ingat semua Bumi bodoh sangat sampai tak nampak what he’s trying to do.

          All the rhetorics about DAP not being able to rule the country because the Chinese are minority is pure BS.

          They know they have a solid strategy on how to achieve it. That’s why I put it to him that the Christian Talibans within their midst are also a minority and yet, by implementing the right strategy and having overseas evangelist support, these so-called minorities are now running the Buddhist majority party.

          This is what the wakaka have been trying to avoid in replying to me.

          • S18,

            I would agree with you that KT spins. But I focus more on the comments. I guess comments from ‘kampung lad’, like yours and HY is quite accurate and a pleasure to read.

          • not exactly spin, but his sources is mainly MT, that’s why. i do like kampung lad, short comment but precise.

      • HY,

        That wiki is wrong. The part about assitional subjects is correct but please take note that it’s an addition to the core curriculum.

        As mentioned earlier, the syllabus is standardized and the additional subjects may be taught in a Chinese language. But the bottom line is that, nationally, the syllabus is based on one national system and taught in one language.

        I’ve been busy bro, just retired from the corporate world, and been trying to organize my personal affairs.

        As to that wakaka fella, he’s typically what most DAP supporters are. Even the leaders of DAP are like that, and have this grand strategy if acquiring more political power either directly or indirectly, ie using Malay politicians as puppets.

        I’ve been close enough to the PR leaders to know that there is no trust amongst the 3 parties. Sure, they project a united front when facing the people but when on their own, the each find ways to put the others down.

        DAP, by far, has far more smarter people compared to PAS and PKR. Sitting down with their strategists, they know that the other two are just ripe for the taking.

        I’ve always liked DAP but the old DAP. The current bunch of leaders are so bigoted that you’d think Ibrahim Ali is a saint!

        Believe it or not, the way they put down the Muslims – more than the Malays – makes me wanna get up and slap the shit out of them.

        I don’t really care if they insult the Muslims if its deserved but to do that with much bravado and fanfare is just unacceptable.

        My problem is that they know I’m married to a Chinese, and that my in-laws are like them – Born again Christians. And too, because of how I was brought up, and being liberal in their eyes, they think that like the other so-called progressive Malays, I’ll join them in ridiculing my own religion. And they’re wrong.

        We are in such a sad, sad state. But you’ve gotta give them credit for being able to stupify the Malays easily. Just praise these stupid Malays and you’ll get then to act like a kuli.

        True story.

        So yeah, that wakaka fella is being used by some peeps in DAP to attack PKR. There are othet’s who are used to attack PAS only.

        That’s how the DAP work.

        They are now using the same ‘I puji you to an extent that you’d do my bidding’ in East Malaysia.

        If PKR and PAS continue to be how they are, I’m confident that one day, DAP will control the political powers on Malaysia.

        Ok, I think I’ve blab too much! Lol

        • S18, the wiki might not wrong, all three sea countries as mentioned by hussin do have chinese school, but private funded. thailand have the most, more than 200. however most is as you explain, the medium is either the native (national) language and english, with additional subject in chinese, however philippines is slightly difference, some of their private chinese school main language is chinese (to be exact is hokkien / minnan), they are quite similar to our cis, the school have the final say on language, the freedom is due to relatively westernize and democratic phillipines government after marcos. meaning to say since 1990s there is a trend that most sea countries become more open to language and culture.

          malaysia can choose to let the chinese school go private, but would that solve the segregation problem, i dont think so, moreover the private chinese school might have more freedom to divert from the national syllabus like what other private and internation school did, hence i agree with jwtan view, we should find ways to fix both the national and vernacular school.

          thanks for sharing your view on dap, as usual some i agree some not, dap is a political party, similar to pas, if they are that ambitious, i should congratulate them. my dislike toward dap is their very confrontational and selfish manner, and high horse attitute, but not all of them is like that. and i think you underrate how skillful and capable the malay master the art of politics.

          wakaka write long post but reply is often a one or two liners, and most of the time i have no clue what his reply is about, mostly are snide like that rpk.

  20. “Malay, unlike Chinese and Indian, are without lengthy history and civilization,”

    “the Malays do not have a lengthy history & civilisation they end up with a spiritual “vacuum” that needs to be filled by Islam as a great religion. Firstly the Malay ancestors were not Muslims but were Hindus” [ hussin @ 4.01pm ]

    I think I have to disagree with the aforesaid statements. I have read ‘Thufat Al-Nafis’ written by Raja Ali Haji of which Virgina Matheson had authenticated the content. I visited Johor-Riau-Lingga (The Malay Empire] the places mentioned in the book. I visited the museums, historical sites, remnants of palaces, old mosques and graves of Sultans. In Lingga, almost all the people speak perfect Bahasa Melayu. In Liingga you can see ‘Gunung Daik Bercabang Tiga’ and a small ‘Pulau Pandan Jauh Ke Tengah’.

    I have been to all those places. My mind wonders how can my friend HY be a constitutional Malay. Let us meet half-way. We are Malaysians.

    • Thank you. I wholeheartedly support this sentiment. Malaysia is stronger if we accept that our culture is made up ot many different strands, and as Malaysians, it is up to all of us to appreciate and protect all those strands.

    • hasan, sorry, I have to correct you in your attribution of quotations above but unfortunately you have posted it in a different place making it less convenient to make references to my earlier posting which you quoted. But references can still be made and I have repeated it, as below, for ease of reading.

      The first quotation in your first line or first paragraph is not my saying but it was a part of the quotation attributed to HY.

      The second quotation in your second paragraph is from my saying but appears to be a quote out-of-context as it is a partial quote which gave an entirely different meaning from my original write-up. Your quotation attributed to me should not miss the opening phrase “It is also not correct to assume that just because, unlike the Chinese, the Malays do not have a lengthy history & civilisation they end up with a spiritual vacuum that needs to be filled by Islam as a great religion…………..” Failure to do it this way will make it appear that both quotations are attributable to me when in actual fact my argument was in rebuttal to HY’s reasoning of which the first quotation was only a part of his argument. Thank you.

      On your remarks of “My mind wonders how can my friend HY be a constitutional Malay”, I think we have taken for granted that Mahathir was said to have claimed to be an Indian while at medical school and many Mamaks are biologically & ethnically Indians too but all are accepted to be as Malays, Constitutional Malays, who now appear to control UMNO. Why can’t we be open-minded enough to accept our Chinese, other Malaysian brothers & sisters as Constitutional Malays too if they meet the Constitutional criteria. The religious part of the requirement has been explained by me profusely without requiring a repetition. Actually hasan, JW Tan also has a great difficulty in coming to terms with what I have been proposing as he is still stuck in racist-leaning definition of a Malay being that of biological/ethnic origin. My proposed thesis has broken completely free from that kind of “conventional” thinking – The Constitutional Malays that I visualise will be the Citizens of Malaysia. There will be no more racists and racism in Malaysia by then.

      • Thanks Hussin and my apologies. Actually, I just want to highlight that we can trace the Malay culture and civilisation back to the 13th century or longer. That is long enough I think. But the Islamic civilisation commenced 1400 years ago.

        Constitution Malay is kind of a superimposed or ‘cultural imperialism imposed’ thingy to me. There is nothing wrong to call ourselves Malaysian but to feel exclusively Chinese, Malay or Indian, etc.. in regard to our culture and heritage. I do not consider that as nationalism though but you do, I guess. Thus, it sounds racism to you.

        We will become one when we all recognise and naturalise and internalise ourselves into that Malaysian cultures and heritage.

      • but but but hasan, HY already become the first woman speaker in our beloved nation, as long as she could thinking outside the box, she have a great (or fat) chance to become mb n pm, no?

        • Helen said HY could also probably be Hannah Yeoh… but but but HY, hasan could be a ‘she’ too. It is so Malaysian to see HY in baju kurung and tudung.. 🙂 😀

        • wait..wait.. I mean it is so Malay to see HY our potential MB/PM in baju kurung and tudung…

          • yes..yes..yes..hasan. We may have taken for granted that we had a Mamak who at one time claimed to be an Indian, whom he genetically is, and yet he was our PM for more than 2 decades. And isn’t a Mamak also now the MB of Perak? I don’t see other Malaysians like HY, JW Tan, P2bM etc having difficulty to qualify if they are willing to meet the Constitutional criteria. Anyway, Rome was not built in a day.

          • but then you would call HY a hypocritical muslim, end justify mean 🙂

          • yes..yes..yes.. What to do? Unfortunately HY if we care to admit and be sincere to ourselves, there were, and are, many hypocrites around in many religions including Islam throughout history. I have mentioned and addressed this possibility in my much earlier postings at a different thread before hasan’s placement of this particular thread here.

          • “wait..wait.. I mean it is so Malay to see HY our potential MB/PM in baju kurung and tudung…”

            n i use to wear batik and look so i dont know what when i am sweating n bleeding in the genting casino. i sometimes thought malaysian is damn funny, how batik once could become the former dress to walk into a casino? do malay still wear batik or kebaya nowadays?

            now i am going to ask the outside box question on hasan disagreement which i actually agree, why malay/muslim in malaysia rarely talk about the malay civilisation as compare to islam civilisation? could the “solely his opinion” comment from the perspective of malay/muslim in malaysia and not malay in general?

            hussin suggestion is nothing new, it is exactly what was practiced by those that uphold judeo christian worldview, but we know they went through a renaissance and subscribe to freedom of religion, i didnt see this happen in most muslim majority state except prrhaps indonesia. thus i disagee with hussin take.

            talk about chinese secular view later.

          • “hussin suggestion is nothing new, it is exactly what was practiced by those that uphold judeo christian worldview, but we know they went through a renaissance and subscribe to freedom of religion, i didnt see this happen in most muslim majority state except prrhaps indonesia. thus i disagee with hussin take.” Quoted by HY on June 13 @9:42am.

            Apart from Indonesia as quoted above, it may not be apparent to HY that Islam too is undergoing continual renaissance and DOES in fact subscribe to freedom of religion as stated in the Quran “You with your Religion and I with my Religion” (quoted not verbatim). So the latter needs no further explanation from me as it has been made clear by the Quran. I will comment furhter on the former, the so-called renaissance.

            It is more akin to changes towards lesser compliance to religious rules or commandments, if you like, than a renaissance. It is a “dilution” or “slacking down” of religious practices observed by claimants (as opposed to real & sincere followers) of the various religions including Islam. Thus you can see “Muslims” buying the 3-digits, 4-digits tickets, drink alcohol freely, involved in extra-marital sex, not doing the 5-daily prayers (even amongst the eduacted & intellectuals) and involving themselves in other offences & crimes disallowed by Islamic teaching. This dilution or slackness (renaissance?) in religious practices & observance do not occur only in Indonesia. It occurs every where else including Malaysia. Publicity on the prevention & enforcement actions by Islamic Authorities in Malaysia is disproportionately overblown thus giving the wrong picture to observers like HY and even the actions are highly selective on the relative few when the larger proportion of the culprits are free to be hypocrites (cultural/ceremonial/docorative & OFFICIAL Muslims). So there you are and many Muslims would be surprise perhaps to realise this too. A RENAISSANCE indeed.

          • hussin, point taken, however i think u miss my point. i am not saying everyone must went through renaissance or indonesia is a good model, i am thinking how introspection can be freely disseminated without fear of reprisal and punish, or in other word, is that possible that even with total freedom, most still choose not to involve themselves in offences & crimes disallowed/discourage by their religion.

          • HY,

            Agreed, I was also not saying that everyone must necessarily undergo a renaissance though most do and whether Indonesia is a good model though, being the largest Muslim country by population, is often quoted in discussions.

            And yes, many responsible & highly civic-minded people would shun crimes or wrong-doings even if they are atheists. This positive behaviour is perhaps due to peer-group pressure giving rise to respect for others & their rights or more probably due to self-conscience.

          • hussin, terimakasih atas hujah yg panjang lebar untuk kefahaman, satu lagi penjelasan, total freedom or freedom of religion doesn’t mean one become atheist, agnostic (i think i am one) and theist, i believe most would remain as muslim, christian n buddhist.

          • HY, Thanks to you too for your probing questions.

            I agree with you what “total freedom or freedom of religion” does or doesn’t mean. The only point to note and remember always is that our Rukun Negara does not seem to allow religious “Free-Thinkers”, Atheism or perhaps even Agnosticism.

      • If the definition of ‘constitutional’ Malay were to include all Malaysian citizens whatever their ethnic group or religion, then I would have no problem with it. However it requires one to be a Muslim, to have an NRD registration stating one is a Malay, to accept budaya Melayu. That is still discriminatory. And, as I have pointed out here, it is unevenly implemented and excludes most Chinese converts, by design or by chance.

        The very existence of a constitutional definition of ‘Malay’ is ridiculous in any case. There should only be a constitutional definition of ‘Malaysian’ i.e. a citizen.

        • You are ignorant to the core. Really malas membaca but proud to show off the world your ignorance and inconsistent stand.

          Now don’t deviate. Answer my question on racism. I’m trying to prove you are racist by your own definition.

          • If I’m so ignorant, please explain. If you can’t explain, then no need to keep insulting me – you should know that empty vessels make the most noise 🙂

          • Tell me what’s the power vested to the Sultan under our constitution where our sultan has full discretion? He need not even follow constitutional convention.

          • Socrates was an smart arse, that’s why they executed him. You meet only the latter half of the criteria so his methods don’t work for you.

            I don’t believe that it is right that the Sultans are not bound by constitutional convention. It’s on the list of many many many things that are wrong with our constitution.

          • You don’t know what you’re talking about. Since you’re so proud of your ignorance don’t deviate. Give an instance? Tell me what’s the percentage of discretion he has over the constitutional convention to follow. You’re showing ignorance of history now. One after another.

        • I quote my earlier comment on the subject but on a different thread, “….JW Tan also has a great difficulty in coming to terms with what I have been proposing as he is still stuck in racist-leaning definition of a Malay being that of biological/ethnic origin.” My write-up on this subject was not based on “Malay” as an ethnic/genetic or biological “race” but the constitutional “MALAY” as defined currently in our Constitutions – which I proposed could be used as a term for the CITIZEN of Malaysia.

          I can’t speculate on the “If” of your comment saying, “If the definition of ‘constitutional’ Malay were to include all Malaysian citizens whatever their ethnic group or religion, then I would have no problem with it.” If you regard the Constitutions are discriminatory on the definition of a Malay, nothing I can do to pacify you. And that goes similarly with your concluding remarks as, “The very existence of a constitutional definition of ‘Malay’ is ridiculous in any case. There should only be a constitutional definition of ‘Malaysian’ i.e. a citizen.”

          • No, you won’t ‘pacify’ me if you insist that to be a full citizen of Malaysia one needs to be a Muslim. That is as bad as insisting that Chinese are pendatang.

          • JW Tan,
            Yes I agree fully with you that you are someone who won’t be pacified by me. Firstly, you tried to introduce a conjecture & speculation in the discussion of the factual Constitutional “Malay definition” as given in that document. You said that you would have no problem with the definition if it includes your own conditional “IF” or else you regard the Constitutions as discriminatory. Secondly, you introduce another new proposition by accusing me that I “…insist that to be a full citizen of Malaysia one needs to be a Muslim.” If you read my comments in response to yours properly, you would see that I did not “insist” but I “proposed” as shown in this ‘copy & paste’ version “….– which I proposed could be used as a term for the CITIZEN of Malaysia”. With your good English, I am sure you can easily see the difference between the two words – please don’t twist my words in this unfair manner as it will reflect your integrity in very poor light. Then you freely and unfairly accused me by saying that “That is as bad as insisting that Chinese are pendatang.” I fully realise that there are 25 million Muslims in China as many as all Malaysians put together and I also know that that renowned Chinese Admiral visiting Melaka was a Muslim too and it would be far from my mind to “insist” that Chinese Malaysians or Malaysian Chinese are pendatang whether they are Muslims or not.
            JW Tan, please take more care in your comments. Thanks.

          • Oh please. The constitution is discriminatory. Wishing it away won’t change things. Our constitution is a terrible document, full of holes and contradictions.

            If you don’t agree that your proposal is discriminatory and ethically wrong, then you are insisting on it no? I did assume that you wouldn’t agree that you were mistaken, if you do I apologise.

            You may not consider Chinese Malaysians to be pendatang (well done you) but by promulgating the constitutional definition of ‘Malay’ you are effectively doing something roughly equivalent.

          • Are you saying that we should not recognize citizenship of the Chinese since our constitution is a terrible documents. You’re a load of bull.

          • Obviously, an all or nothing approach would be stupid. So no, I’m not claiming that at all.

            I dislike many parts of our constitution. I’d like to tear it up and rewrite it properly so that it clearly guarantees equal freedoms for all Malaysians. Having a constitutional definition of ‘Malay’ is discriminatory and ridiculous. As a constitutional definition of ‘Chinese’ would be. I repeat – all the constitution needs to define is ‘Malaysian’, without reference to race or religion.

          • Some people have no clue what a constitution is and should be. Thinking constitution is written in vacuum. One of the most stupidest comment you will ever see.

          • JW Tan dislikes the current Malaysian Constututions and he would like to tear it up and rewrite it. That says a lot about this person if he is a Malaysian citizen with full knowledge of our history and appreciation of the good effort by our Founding Fathers. I can’t say more to that.
            I started the discussion on this subject not with the view to tear up the Constitutions but to discuss the fact as already laid down in the document. This lad came along with his attempt at diversion by introducing irrelevant conjecture & speculations ending with unfair accusations against me by making misplaced assumptions.
            If anyone wishes to have the Constitutions amended legitimately a two thirds votes in Parliament will be needed. JW Tan is welcome to make this effort if he is a responsible & law-abiding Malaysian citizen. Tearing up the document is not a responsible answer.

          • Hussin,

            He is a confirm racist bigot. I have enough of idiotic racist person.

          • Thank you hussin. It says I’m a patriot. It says that i have strong opinions on what is best for the country, and that I oppose whimsical changes (700 or so) that have been inserted by BN over the years. It says that I want to move my country into the 21st century out of the 1950s. It says that I care about all my fellow citizens and not just those who happen to share an NRD bangsa category with me.

            You are right, it says a lot about me. Your response also says a lot about you. Less complimentary stuff.

          • You’re a racist bigot. Justifying racism. Apply racism selectively. Sick to the core.

          • JWT – Patriot? You??? OK, no further comments.

          • He’s a confirmed racist bigot.

          • Aiiiiyo!!! Ellese, I agree with you. It’s proven & confirmed beyond any reasonable doubts based on the clear trends of his previous postings showing the characteristic negative leanings.

            And he got the cheek to claim (on June 14 at 4:29pm) that, “Obviously, an all or nothing approach would be stupid. So no, I’m not claiming that at all.” Did he imply that his hidden objective is actually “an all and everything approach would be smart”???

  21. Dear P2bm,

    I have always found you somewhat reasonably intelligent but always find your manner of argument very dishonest. Our recent argument is another repetition. You have read yourself JW’s argument of racism. You know I have issues with such definition and wrote postings to show why people with such position are inconsistent or hypocritical when they at the same time support vernacular school.

    Yet you deny this premise and without admitting it pretend that its never a big issue. Instead you went to attack my position on schools pula. I wholly refuse to play your style.

    Worse is when you ask to provide evidence for DAP’s stand. I find this revolting simply because of your selectivity and double standard in demanding proof. The DAP’s stand on the vernacular school is a well known common knowledge. You could have simply google it. But you demand me to show you such reference. But you on the other hand have for umpteenth times resorted to unproven personal and secret information argument which you cannot disclose when cornered for evidence or proof.

    This to me is the dishonest approach which I believe you purposely employ. I’ve captured it once in a posting on you. I’ve attacked your credibility and you have shown absolutely no remorse.

    It is for this I don’t feel like entertaining you and pushed your posts into the dedicated dishonest post I did earlier. Those who want to deal with you can deal with you there. However doing this is cumbersome and takes my time.

    So instead in the future ill allow your publication. Buy whenever you write and I find you’re being dishonest, I will respond with the following:

    “Please cease your typical dishonest argument method. Refer to the dedicated posting on you. Birds of the same feather are encouraged to engage with p2bm there.”

    I will review this method from time to time and if need be use more of the direct face to face language.

    Ps. JW you may want to consider joining p2bm there since you’re showing the same manner of argument.

    • Asserting something is common knowledge is not evidence. I repeat – not one shred of evidence advanced by you that DAP take action to support vernacular schools or are racist.

      • Deviating again. Answer my earlier question.

        • Answered already. Where’s the evidence?

          • You haven’t answered. I’ve asked three times already.

            I repeat for the fourth time:

            If not putting Malaysian first is racist, any advocate or supporter of segregation of our youngs by race is also racist since its not putting Malaysian first.

            Do you not agree with this?

          • See comments at June 11 9.43 pm and again at 10.43 pm. Where’s the evidence?

          • How can you answer before the question is asked. My subsequent question came at 11++ pm.

            Youve already agreed that those who dont put malaysian first is racist and that those who support and advocate vernacular schools do not put Malaysian interest first.

            My next question and now for the fifth time that you’re deviating is: do you agree that those who support and advocate vernacular school are racist since they don’t put Malaysian interest first?

            How many times you want to avoid. We first establish the definition which you like DAP apply selectively. Now answer. For you I need to do step by step coz you always leap logics and deviate. I already told p2bm what I intend to so you know where I’m coming from and you get to see “pretend” demand of evidence.

          • I thought you asked me many times already 😀 You can read my replies – 11 June 9.43 and again at 10.43. But just because I’m a kind and reasonable person I will answer once more.

            Your statement is illogical. You think sending one’s children to vernacular schools indicates ‘not putting Malaysia first’, and is therefore racist. You think support for vernacular schools is racist because it is ‘not putting Malaysia first’. That is not necessarily correct. You have to look at people’s reasons for doing so. Some of their reasons are good ones – e.g. vernacular schools teach better, they teach useful languages, they often provide the best or only available education in some poor communities, etc. Why is aspiring to give one’s children the very best set of skills one can not putting Malaysia first? In fact it’s one of the most patriotic things one can do.

            I’m not going to pretend that vernacular schools are good. They are a divisive issue, and do create racist outcomes. However they are also a complex issue, and if one boils it down to black or white, good or bad, then one is not interested in finding a solution and only interested in posturing. Sandiwara sahaja.

            So, no, I don’t agree that all people who support and attend vernacular schools are ‘not putting Malaysia first’. And I certainly don’t agree that they are all racist. Whether they are or not is really down to their individual reasons and motivations.

            If you are trying to score points in a debate by trying to prove me wrong. you’ll find that it’s quite hard. I’ve thought reasonably deeply about this. But what maybe you don’t realise is that I simply don’t care if you try. It’s those of us who have stakes in vernacular education that will change it to be more beneficial for Malaysia, and I have hopes that we can make it better. That’s I get my validation from other people who also live with this issue every day.

          • I see. You’re justifying racism.

            For you anything to do with Malay rights is racism as it doesn’t put Malaysian first. Malays cannot argue on history law sociology etc etc. but suddenly when it comes to Chinese language rights and school its reasonable to justify racism.

            You sick to the core. A real chauvinistic bigot. Now justifying racism after taking a high moral standing condemning others. No wonder you deviate so many times. Sick. Sick. Sick.

          • By the way, I’m still waiting for the evidence. Where’s the evidence that the DAP are racist? Where’s the evidence that they have taken action to support vernacular schools?

            I think you don’t have any, and you’re just throwing baseless allegations around. Same as those you profess to condemn.

          • Jangan jadi bodoh. You’re racist to the core. I’m dealing with racist people differently. You do not deserve proper decorum,

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