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Enough is enough. People who proclaim to fight for freedom of expression and free media but censors other's legitimate reply based on their whims and fancy, must realise that on the internet, they cannot suppress peoples' legitimate right to reply and express contrarian views. This blog welcomes all views. ~ Ellese

Taktik kotor Pakatan Rakyat

94 Comments

I read with disgust what Rafizi is trying to do and utterly condemn his action. He wanted to challenge the decision of elections not in courts but with a partial tribunal. He knows that only a court can overturn the decision of an election. He knows he has to submit proof of a credible nature to courts. He knows that all those evidence have to be shown to and judged by the public at large. He knows that he needs to convince a knowledgeable and experienced judge. He knows the rule of tribunal is unclear and arbitrary. He knows the accused won’t submit to this illegal and unfair trial. He knows and should know that at the tribunal his opponent can and will not challenge his evidence. Probably they will not even be given a right to reply. He knows his evidence is not subject to scrutiny expected in courts. He knows at the tribunal the judge would be a friend/supporter or sympathiser. He knows the tribunal is organised by those who support him.

He knows he can manipulate and distort information. Shameful.

This is gutter politics. This is the politics of destruction. This is the politic of lies and treason. I totally condemn those who ask others for respect on the rule of law and due process but spit on those principles when they apply to them. Such person deserves the highest opprobrium that I can utter right now.

Ps: when reference to knowledge above is made, it includes implied knowledge that any reasonable person would or should have known in rafizi’s capacity.

Ps: rafizi lied imputing spoiled votes are fraudulent. Any spoilt votes has to be shown to each party’s counting agents and be agreed to. If any disagreed they would have objected to it. Rafizi pembohong besar.

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94 thoughts on “Taktik kotor Pakatan Rakyat

  1. We can’t expect a party knowing that it would lose its case in the legal court of law due to lack of evidence would submit the case to be judged there. Such a loss despite so much serious allegations of cheating & frauds being thrown around against the other party would not only cause a shameful loss of face but inflict credibility damage beyond repairs on the accuser. Other more friendly “courts” would have to be used to further mislead the public especially the youths.

  2. Frankly, Ellese, do you think the PR people really do care about any consequences in their blind drive to the objective of their dream – Putrajaya? I do hope our people will wake up soon to realise that now is the time for us to work to be more productive.

  3. It is virtually impossible to win any Election Petition to be submitted to the High Court within 21 days of the GE13 Results being gazetted.

    Are you saying that all the alleged fraud is flimsy, fake or irrelevant?

    Are you saying that the GE13 is absolutely clean and fair?

    Are you saying that the BN did nothing to cheat?

    Are you saying that the people wearing black dissent are crazy and misinformed?

    Although there were a few cases that the honorable judges did rule for a re-election, they are the exception.

    Actually, in my opinion, PR will probably win a few of the cases but not the 29 they are planning to submit. A few may be one or two and it will not have a material difference to challenge the results.

    The doubt will remain which means it is OK to cheat as long as it is not easily proven.

    How did David Copperfield pass through the Great Wall of China? It is physically impossible. But yet he did.

    How did BN cheat in the GE13? It is practically impossible. But yet they did.

    Or we are with Alice in Wonderland. It is not cheating. It is only an apparent fraud. Since you cannot prove its entirety, there is none.

    Some examples:

    1. there were numerous foreigners caught with MyKad who went to vote but were apparently stopped – so what can a few such people caught be considered fraud? The people committed a crime stopping ppl with valid MyKad. They certainly can’t change the results

    2. there were a few counting locations experiencing lights out (not power failure) and introducing new early voters boxes (they didn’t come from the salurans) – so what can a few such cases change the results

    3. there were a number of cases where voters were paid monies or caught claiming monies for voting for BN – so what a few hundred people were actually paid? They certainly can’t change the results

    4. there were a number of cases where Saluran Heads had signed Borang 14 ahead of time, didn’t sign them or forced BACA to do things against their will – so what since they are not enough to change the results

    5. indelible ink is actually delible and some people had actually voted twice – so what if a few people did it? They certainly an’t change the results

    Unless you can show me tens of thousands of people as witnesses or enough Saluran Heads admitting to doing what you alleged, can you please get lost?

    Well, guess what? There will be not enough evidence of this nature for sure.

    Hence, the GE13 is certainly fair and free of fraud. It’s the PR who manufactured all the alleged cheating. BN is totally clean.

    • I’m up in arms against ridiculous false allegations. Allow me to state the position in law.

      1) if during black out they introduce new ballots box, you have one stupid counting agent. During the counting no one can enter the room. The counting agent must be deaf and can’t hear the door opening, someone coming in and changing the box. When the light comes back on he must be damned stupid not to see that there’s additional transparent box. In such a case I doubt he can even count. Please note in one saluran there’s only one ballot box. Before the start the polling agent must sign at the seal. Sorry this is one preposterous argument and cant believe people being conned by this argument.

      2) on vote buying, please show bn or its agents actually give money to vote to the voters and not its workers etc. This is a valid offence. So far I see people queuing and supposedly to get the money if bn wins. Theres not enough nexus. There are still many reasonable doubts that can be created. however this is probable so bring it to court,

      3) on form 14 counting agent object lah at that time. Not after all being counted. They can check with all their agents to confirm the numbers. So object object object until you’re satisfied lah. If your polling agent don’t know how to object, don’t blame other people for failing to object.

      4) on indelible ink I have always object to it when ambiga proposed it. Then SPR dumbly followed her. There are better technology.

      Anyway, the registration list is required to be published. Its given to all parties in soft copies pun. So check out and object lah for similar ICs. If they objected there’s a proper hearing for this. And if there’s similar people voting, polling agent object lah lagi. Ask for the thumb to be inspected lagi lah. Object to IC n minta to see the actual IC. What’s the problem?

      • Why up in arms? You can’t accept that BN knows all the magic tricks?

        1. I didn’t refer to Saluran, I refer to Early Voting. Watch the rollout of evidence. We shall see.

        2. You refuse to acknowledge vote buying, call Aliran investigation stupid. I can assure you the courts will not entertain probable cause. Will be thrown out. How many ppl are party to this? Enough to overthrow the majority win? Not a chance.

        3. Yes I have to agree that some Counting Agents are not so smart or not so strong to stand up to the KTM and others. If PR has to buck up, they must train all PABACA to be supermen and lawyers else forget about winning ever.

        4. Indelible ink was to prevent voting a second time. Malaysia’s indelible ink is the first in the world you can wash off after voting. I personally don’t think technology in Malaysia will work. Must do with time proven with many countries techniques but even indelible ink EC can cheat. What a joke on Malaysians!

        5. Registration list has been for the longest time contested and in court, twice, thrown out if you are not aware. Both before the GE13 on the technicality that gazetted list cannot be challenged in court, even if proven errors and fraud. In Selangor 130,000 names were challenged.

        Read testimony of MalaysiaKini CEO. He went to vote, was told somebody with his IC already voted before him. All the Ballot Agents also stopped it but the KTM overruled and allowed him to vote. But many instances ppl was stopped from voting because somebody with their ICs already voted earlier.

        Another guy went to vote twice, once in the morning, then wash off finger, went in afternoon, voted again.

        All of these cases may appear probably cause but because the reports are not many, so it has no bearing on the final outcome. The court will want to know if there are the thousands who voted twice, or the thousands who were prevented from voting because somebody with their IC # had voted before them, etc. There must be material evidence, not a few police reports here and there.

        So, in conclusion, nothing in the PR petition to the courts will matter much.

        • You get conned easily.

          Why don’t you read the law. For instance the law provides for rejection of names on the list. There’s a procedure. After gazette one can challenge it and EC must take cognizant of it. EC must hold public hearing if i recall correctly. There’s a period of objection. If no objection only then its deemed final.

          PR perbodohkan rakyat again. They identify who they don’t know and thus challenge the list ikut suka hati dia orang. Of course the court reject lah.

          I really don’t understand all this.

          Then on early voting allegation all I’ve seen is the early ballot box. Early voting is by postal bags lah. Why is there so much lies?

          Then on PACA, the fundamental rule is if you send an agent, if he agrees to a position, you are estopped under the law to deny it. This is basic law again. So if both pr and bn agent agree to accept a mark or tick as indication of intent so be it. You can’t argue otherwise later. Elementary law and justice principle. Why is it so difficult to understand?

          • Ps.

            To introduce new ballot box must be done after 5:00pm but before 5:30pm.

            Coz, once after 5:30pm, the boxes have been opened and nothing anyone can do to add or remove the ballot papers.

            So even if there was lights out at 5:15pm, it would have been still very bright in the class rooms.

            Furthermore, all PR PABACA have been instructed to stand guard either in the room or at the door of the room between 5:00pm to 5:30pm.

            This story of lights out and ballot box exchange is soo incredulous.

          • This is basic but some people “suka diperbodohkan”. Apa nak buat? Hehehe.

          • You probably didn’t follow the 2 cases. Here is the verdict.

            The judge held that the court had no jurisdiction to review, quash or set aside electoral roll once it had been gazetted under Section 94A of Elections Act 1958.

            Even if the electoral was questionable or contains erroneous lists, nothing can be done. EC says they are looking into it means they will forever look into it without amending.

            However, when it was pointed out that Papagomo had 2 ICs, one MyKad and a Police Kad, in 2 different entries in the roll, the Police Kad entry was mysteriously removed the next day.

            So, we have the EC able to make changes against the law quietly but the courts cannot.

          • You obviously have no inkling of our election law and democratic practices.

            For every democracy with registration process, all list will be published. Once published there’s a process to challenge it. After such date its final.

            Our law is the same. You fail to highlight pr purposely did not follow the law. Nurul izzah’s played to the gallery. She can con you but not all.

            Go read your election law first.

          • ServiceB4Self, you are right if you are talking about the Saluran but not at the Tallying Station. All boxes must be sealed with the Borang 14 signed and delivered to the Counting Station so that the tally can be made.

            The allegations of new boxes introduced and lights out refer to these locations.

            Now if new boxes are introduced at the Salurans, that is something else not unlike David Copperfield’s illusions.

          • You are obviously ignorant. At central counting area, these boxes are irrelevant. Don’t bull.

            The only ballots at the central counting area are those salurans at that area and postal votes. Come on. This is a blatant false info you’re giving.

          • Obviously, when you have to go check on every entry on that list can you determine if there are any doubtful entries. If there are hundreds of thousands, how do you do that in the prescribed time?

            Selangor did the ground work to check best they can and discovered 150,000 questionable entries – incomplete address, tens to hundreds of names at a single address, wrong address, non-existent address, etc. EC says is not their problem but the blame is the NRD data.

            So it seems nobody can challenge the list at all. Maybe PR can do that when the list is next gazetted.

            The law was done assuming a clean list and individuals to check their own. It does not cater for phantom voters and certainly not as large a number as claimed by the Selangor PR.

            I can only remember a case where the electoral results were overturned because of phantom voters after election happened and it was the Likas seat in Sabah won by Yong.

      • Ellesse,

        I dont know whether anyone realised it or not. Counting of the votes (incl postal votes) at each saluran started sharp at 5:30pm. It takes about 40mins to count the max 500 ballots at each saluran. So most saluran would have finished counting by 6:10pm or max 6:30pm.

        What I know is that at 6:10pm Peninsular Malaysia is still very bright especially in the class room where the saluran is situated.

        Why would a blackout be critical? Sundown is about 7:30pm!

        • Interesting. I think there may be certain exception. One is when SPR and parties agree to a short break. During the break of course the counting agent “jaga” the saluran like “hantu”. No one can get in. Then they can check the signed form on the seal of their ballot box.

          The other one is that may be some counting agent gila recount. They recount and recount sampai malam sehingga black out. Hehehe….

          • Very true.

            SPR has been known in some locations to “take a break” and tell everybody to leave the room only attended to by them and BN.

            There are those that keep recounting sampai malam.

            How the blackout works could be just the room or the main switch at the school. I am still wondering how anyone can pull off a David Copperfield during GE13 and I am anxiously and eagerly awaiting for more info.

          • Bull. Don’t lie at my blog. You’re lying through your teeth.

            If there’s a break all will have to leave. Pr polling agents will object of only bn inside.

            I told you not to lie.

          • That was exactly what I said. SPR and BN inside and PR told to leave during the break.

            It appears you don’t read properly either and jump the gun and call names and denounce others just too easily.

          • Huh. No one inside lah duh. Prove me just one instant where this happen? If not this is one of your series of lies.

  4. In the 2000 US Presidential Election, it was announced that George Bush Jr was the President annulling the Al Gore challenge. Al accepted the court decision although he felt he had won. Over the following months when Florida votes were recounted, it was found that Al Gore had actually won but it was too late. He had accepted the results and George Bush remained as President.

    Even recounting in such an advance country like the US can find a different result.

    • You recount within the procedure given. You can recount as much as you are permitted. But when you agree to stop leading to announcement of winner which you didnt oppose, dont you think asking for a recount after that is pure bad faith. This goes against the principle counting procedure. PR problems is its bad faith. The difficulty is not because of the courts. Its the bad faith. Bring up good cogent reason to overturn the decision. Not nonsensical ground.

  5. For every Parliamentary Seat, they will have to appoint 500 PABACAs. Each party who contests for the 222 seats will have to find 111,000 volunteers who are equally capable.

    Conclusion: Forget it. Not going to happen 🙂

    • It has happen in all elections lah. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I’ve never seen its unrepresented. So don’t raise stupid assertions. PR never raise this argument before.

    • How did you come to 500 PABACA?

      Each PDM has about 4-5 saluran. Each saluran has 5 shifts. So maximum per PDM is 25 people. Usually each agent would take 2 shifts.

      Each constituency of 50,000 voters would have 14-15 PDM (usually 3,500 voters per PDM). This comes to a maximum of 375 people – assuming no one has more than 1 shift.

      What I saw, both sides the PABACA has at least 2 shifts or some even have 3 shifts.

      • Large constituencies like Kelana Jaya etc have appointed 500 PABACAs. Obviously, if you look at Putrajaya with 15k voters, you won’t need that many. Still, there are a lot of supplementary manpower needed to observe.

        Some other constituencies in Sabah and Sarawak in rural closes at 1:30pm so they don’t need as many. So, I stand corrected as the 500 PABACAs will apply to mid to large constituencies and not the small ones.

        You also forget that more are needed at the Tallying centers, not just the salurans.

        Also, observers are needed to follow the transporting of boxes from Polling location to Tallying center. Nobody trusts the Police anymore.

        • Don’t be stupid. You are purposely lying. Law provides you must have paca. No complains they have not by pr. You’re starting another misinformation. Prove to me one location where pr doesn’t have paca. Ill show you its their stupidity if they can’t provide.

          P2b, stop lying. Stop propagating falsehood.

          • I am not saying they don’t have PACA. I am saying they need a lot. They will never have enough quality PACA to defend on the spot and as usual, being steamrolled by others. This is a fact.

            What you don’t agree you can’t judge as lies. Your classic sweeping others aside assuming you are always right.

          • What’s the problem. I know pr had a course for their PACA. If they are stupid and incompetent don’t blame others for their stupidity.

  6. Simple, if you have any allegations or accusations to make against anything or anyone, prove it in courts.

    • Husin, this is true but we are talking about Election Court. There is only one case I know that the Judge dared to stand against the establishment. High Court Judge Datuk Muhammand Kamil Awang did just that right before retiring and called for a by-election of Likas. You can read http://lamankm2b.tripod.com/cgi-bin/m/KM2A1/4824.html

      It is extremely difficult to prove but I am keen to see what BN and PR has in hand to file their petitions. BN, I am very curious but they have the right to do so. PR because of the widespread allegations and videos and reports ala FB, blogs, etc.

      Let’s see what happens.

      • Pr lied. Pr dare not to show their evidence in public and subject to standard scrutiny.

        • How do you come to such a conclusion? You make a terrible judge and I am sure glad our judiciary is nothing like you.

          The due process of collection and analysis is being done by PR and Bersih. Rafizi is just doing a political PR striptease. So for the 2 issues he highlighted with the alleged document evidence, you have said nothing but call names.

          Do your analysis and give a factual rebuttal instead of saying he lied, bull, etc.

          • These are lies. Our standard of proof in the election courts are the same with other commonwealth election courts. Why the heck we must bend laws for PR. Everywhere in the world to prove fraud is onerous but for pr we don’t have to ke? What another stupid argument.

            Sorry. I told you I’ve enough with flimsy arguments pretending to be right. You cannot prove don’t pretend you’re right.

          • When you can’t rebutt, you make sweeping remarks and avoid answering and stating your position and analysis.

            I asked you for your factual rebuttal of Rafizi expose but you cleverly avoided.

            I never said we need to bend laws for PR. Show me where I said anythiing so stupid. You create a strawman and shoot it down all you want. Seems you like arguing with yourself.

            You are the one who creates a fictitious issue and say it is stupid. And still never state your position. What is your rebuttal on Rafizi exposes?

          • No. I was “upset” when you first argued its not possible to field for parties to have PACA at all saluran. When asked to give one example, you said you don’t mean that. You said they’re not trained pula. Why are shifting position.

            First of all I’ve rebutted why all these doesn’t make sense. Now if you have specific proof tell us lah. Don’t go around making sweeping unjustified allegations and ask people to rebut. Its not on.

          • Ellese, it is obvious you have not read the Election Offenses Act 1954. It is most unfair but nothing can be done to change it.

            Although we may be similar to general election courts, the conditions and time periods are not, I believe. 21 days to file after the results are gazetted but 28 days from the date the illegal acts are conducted will kill most petitions. And etc etc.

            If real evidence is documented and available, there must be enough names of voters willing to come forward to testify if necessary. And the numbers of voters must be sufficient to deem to have material impact on the result.

            Now, the magic election tricks are very difficult to compile in completeness. If you have taken money, will you come forward to testify? How many will be prepared to standby to be called?

            Anyway, I say too much already. Don’t be naive that it is easy to win an Election Petition. It is not because of many encumbrances and is far from trivial.

            I watch with great interest when PR and BN files their petitions soon. Let’s see how they fare. If sufficient reasonable doubt is cast, will the judges rule fairly?

            I believe a lot of the evidences will be made public by PR and Bersih over time and left for Malaysians to judge for themselves what they make out of the fraud of GE13.

          • Why is our election laws unfair? By whose standard? Yours ke? PR ke? Why must we bend the laws for pr only then there’s justice?

            In UK its 21 days juga. In Switzerland its 3 days. France 10 days. Sweden 10 days. Greece 25 days.

            How long do you need to allow PR to file a case and win? One year? Sepuluh tahun?

            You have no clue but dare say I’ve not read it. Everywhere in the world people play by the same rule tapi we must always make exception for PR. I have enough of this special privilege argument of PR. Rubbish betul. Argue for the sake of arguing.

          • Ha Ha Ellese, Ellese.

            Did I argue or did I make a remark? Period to file a petition starts counting from when? Period to file Petition, if an illegal practice is the reason, starts counting from when?

            I didn’t say to bend or change the rules to suit one party. I commented that in practice it is very challenging. It is easy to say when we are not the ones preparing the filing of Petitions and so many too.

  7. It is not my intent to furnish evidence here. Let PR and BN file their election petitions to the Courts and Bersih to work through the Tribunal and then all will surface.

    I tend to agree that I should not believe everything that is floating around on the Internet, videos or pictures or report are real for some and doubtful for others. I know how some of the magic tricks are done to rig votes and buy votes from very reliable sources. These tricks have been around for a long time but it matters now because the results are close for the first time.

    Are you saying that GE13 is clean and free of fraud? A simple yes or no will suffice.

  8. P2bm,

    I am really interested in these tricks you say you know. Can you elaborate?

    • Oh there are many and they are quite ingenious. Some are blatant while other methods are subtle. Some operate along fine lines but still illegal. However, you will be surprised that everything you have heard about the election magic tricks are quite real indeed.

      Ellese will say if I don’t spell out how, then I should shut up. When someone uses such tricks, don’t you think they have thought through how to avoid detection and if detected, how to explain it all away? Anyway, they have had a few score years to practice and as the old adage goes, practice makes perfect.

      Except this time, many were caught by the vigilant public. I have seen and confirmed many of the police reports, SDs, photos, statistics, tactics, etc. And my immediate remark was OMG! It is happening from Perlis to Sabah.

      • P2bm,

        I read your reply but I feel you failed to mention what exactly is the “magic” that is being done.

        Could you please elaborate just one method?

        • Rafizi has made public a few. The latest being voters who are genuine IC holders not able to vote because someone with their IC numbers already voted. One such victim was MalaysiaKini MD but the EC clerk allowed him to vote although the PAs of both BN and PR objected. Read http://my.news.yahoo.com/mkini-ceo-victim-of–phantom–voters–072904834.html

          This is a class of phantom voters who seem to hold MyKad that appear genuine with numbers of other voters who have yet to vote on that day. Info is probably passed by PAs at the check-in points. I’ve seen some handwritten notes of nombor siri being tracked by BN agents so they know who have not check-in yet.

          How this is done is what I can’t figure out because the ability to generate MyKads for this purpose sounds like a big conspiracy theory, far fetched, treasonous but alas, it has happened. Like David Copperfield walking thru the Great Wall of China. How he did it we don’t really know but he did cross to the other side with audience watching live.

          • P2bm,

            You say its through phantom voters.

            Your evidence is someone has already voted when the real voter has not voted.

            2 major issues need to be cleared:

            1. This incidences must be numerous enough to effect the results. Otherwise if the court were to overturn the result of the election of an MP just because of 1 instance, BN would have ensured one phantom voter to vote on anor’s IC in say Lembah Pantai, and then filed a petition to overturn Nurul Izzah’s win. If BN really have such power, they would have ensured it happened in all 89 constituencies won by PR.

            2. The next question the court would ask, how did this phantom voted? No one can answer. Do you reduce PR or BN votes?

            You raised the fact BN PACA listed down the nombor siri of the voters. It just shows that BN when comparing the nombor siri with the voters roll, BN just know who went out to vote on 5 May. So what is the value of that knowledge? How is that allow cheating to occur? Please elaborate.

            Please do tell me what other concrete cheating cases that your secret sources have told you? Please do tell me what is the case that would be enough to overturn an election result.

          • There is really no use of anyone noting down the Nombor Siri of voters checking in to vote unless you want to know who has not voted yet. Then by correlating with the electoral roll, you can tell the IC# and name of voter not yet come to vote at that time.

            This is very important for anyone wanting to cheat with another MyKad of the same number. You don’t want a phantom voter caught red handed.

            Either they can manufacture it early for a batch or they produce it immediately. How this is done is the conspiracy theory. No point speculating.

            All I am trying to point out is:

            a) Fake MyKads are used in the place of genuine voters
            b) Nombor Siri are noted to find out who has not voted yet to know which MyKads can be used
            c) Somehow, these fake MyKads are produced either in prior batches or at will

            And a) and b) are clearly observed. So logic says c) must be true but unproven.

            This is not enough to overturn a seat’s result but it does cast doubts on the entire system.

          • P2bm,

            For your hyphothesis to work, one more element must occur and you have to show evidence. Failing which, your entire theory collapse.

            You must show that for the last 30 min before 5pm when polling close, there is a deluge of voters that came to vote. This is to reduce the risk of your so call cheating to occur.

            From my “secret sources” the number of voters voting in practically all salurans for the period of 4pm-5pm was between 5-10 voters only. This means for each PDM that would mean only only between 30-60 voters only voted during that period. Assuming 30% are phantom voters, this means between 10-20 voters.

            The next question is how many contituencies would be affected if only there are average 15 phantom voters per PDM? Can you check with your secret sources?

          • I think I know where you are coming from. First, I am not a party member of any party. They are the ones who should be filing Election Petition. I will leave it to them.

            Next, I notice you are not willing to see a fraud being a fraud, no matter how big or small. This is cheating with MyKad which is very serious, treasonous too. You appear to say so what, if it is a small number that can be proven but not overturn the results, it is OK. I admit at this time, I have not seen enough Police Reports on this matter but who am I to say otherwise.

            I know what is needed to file the petition and be material to affect the results. All I say here is reasonable doubt on this fraud. I already heard of such cases in the morning of the Election Day in my area. This, to me, is a serious cheat. But agree, it is not sufficient strength for a Petition by itself.

            I don’t know how many voters eventually made a police report but there are enough to show doubt of the NRD and electoral system and fake MyKads produced and used by unknown persons.

            If you say faking MyKads are OK and voting with a fake MyKad is OK, we are on different value system here and our views will never meet.

          • P2bm,

            Please reread my reply and not once I wrote faking MyKad is ok.

            The fact is, if I am going to take your hyphothesis, BN would have used that fact to overturn 89 other wins by PR. Just show a single instance of double mykad in each of the 89 constituencies, and file a petition to overturn the win.

            Based on what you said since PR should have been able to do the same, wouldnt BN able to do the same?

            Now lets take that position, do you think BN should succeed to overturn such wins just because of one single double voters for those seats? Do tell me your answer and tell me conclusively why BN or PR should or shouldnt succeed? Please base your answer on the accepted fact that no one knows which party such phantom voter voted for – afterall their votes are a secret.

          • “BN would have used that fact to overturn 89 other wins by PR.”

            i see no problem with this. the issue is everytime after election, small or big one we talk the same thing, and we commoners dont know who is right and wrong. i am wondering if there is no permanent solution for this?

          • I thought I was quite clear that the fake MyKad incidents are not strong enough to stand in the Petition. And if BN wants to show this to be true to overturn their losses, so be it.

            Certainly, nobody knows who they voted for either. I couldn’t care about that but whoever is doing it must be sought out and duly charged. It smears the NRD and SPR directly. They must want the truth, no?

            Who can do such tricks? It is not trivial and will gain from it in many ways.

            But do you see any action to get to the bottom of this? Do you see any outrage that this is undermining the country’s security? Does it sound similar to something already happened in Sabah?

            HY also knows this happened all the time but this time round we have many Police reports. The Phantom Voter case in Likas did not have such evidences but reasonable doubt was shed on the electoral roll on tens of thousands of names.

          • Actually, your theory is wrong.

            1. To counter phantom voters like this is to vote early so that you are not prevented to vote, not the last 30 min

            2. I already said I only know this type of phantom voters exist by the Police reports so either they are lying or it is true.

            3. If your sources are correct, can you explain why the voter turnout is at 84% to 91%? People should be lining up all the way till 5pm but after 1pm they were only trickling in.

            What I said is not a theory, it has happened and Police reports are made. So either you say these people are deluded and lying or it is as they reported.

          • P2bm,

            Firstly, I feel you shouldnt pick a percentage of those voted out of thin air and say it is 91%. I suppose if I were to ask from where you got this %, you would say your “secret source” told you. So in order to have a more productive discussion, lets just use SPR’s statistics – 84%.

            If the phantom voters were used early in the day, though it may deprive genuine voters to vote, it would mean that it would easily be discovered. If your contention is correct, we will see PR filing tens of thousand evidence of voters unable to vote due to anor having voted using their NRIC nomber. So if PR is unable to show such evidence, would you be agreeable to admit that your theory is unsupported and clearly to deceive.

            What I meant was that for cheating to be effective and in stealth using phantom voters, the operation has to occur after 4:30pm coz during that time most of the voters that wants to vote has voted and thus those NRIC not used that you know based on the taking down nombor siri, can now be used for phantom voters. That’s what I mean to vote in the last 30 mins.

            To be effective, you have to ensure that you have at least 50% of the NRIC of all the voters on the roll (about 6.5 million NRICs), so that assuming 85% has voted, you still have about 7.5% of the voters whose identity can be used for Phantom votes. This would mean at least 975,000 false mykad be available for use in the GE13?. I do suppose, you would need one person each to hold a mykad, so I suppose in a constituency of 120,000, there would be 9,000 people hiding behind trees waiting for the right time to rush out at 4:30pm to vote.

            Lets say for the sake of argument, the average parliamentary constituency is about 50,000 voters, there would be 3,750 ready phantom voters hiding in the bushes and trees to rush out to vote for such constituency. So does this mean 832,500 of phantoms were mobilised throughout the country on a single day? If BN can really do that, BN would be far better that any army in the whole world! Just tell me which army in the history managed to mobilise 832,500 people undetected within a day through out a vast area the size of Malaysia?

            So lets just suspend disbelief for a moment and accept that 800k people were mobilised. So lets say 5% were caught out – PR should be able through their PACA to produce 41,625 instances (or 187 instances per constituency) where such alleged fraud had occurred. Honestly, what I have seen PR were able to show is just a handful for the entire country.

            P2bm, sorry you need to ask again from your “secret source”, anor more credible circumstance where magic was done.

          • SB4S

            I notice you misread or misunderstood my comments entirely. You are covering 3 separate point all mixed into 1 which you have confused yourself.

            1. For voter turnout, I did not pluck from thin air. I have the GE13 Dataset with me and SPR is trying to mislead. They announced it was 80% at 5pm at end of polling day. The next day they said 84%. Well, as you know about averages, there were a number of places at the 70s but majority were between 84% to 91% in the close fight seats. Surprised? My point on this is that given the world record high voter turnout, you don’t see the queues either, so where did they come from?

            2. What I shared was a class of Phantom Voters who voted in the place of genuine voters and there are Police Reports and I have personally seen them. In fact, Rafizi published a number on his blog. This is a fact as I said. To counter this type of fraud is to vote early so that you are not bumped out.

            3. You are talking about another class of Phantom Voters who are in the Electoral Roll but is spurious. Mimos has done the study too, you should check, where there were thousands of cases of >100 voters in a single address, >50 etc all in a single address, with Police Reports made by owners of some of those addresses. For such cases, they will come to the selected salurans to vote. They have MyKads so technically you can’t stop them. I have not talked about this yet. Only #2. You have confused #2 and #3 and put them together.

            Your theory doesn’t work either. I am not assuming anything. I believe if this is done that it is already in the erroneous Electoral Roll that was to be cleaned up but wasn’t.

            The point I kept emphasizing is that a fraud is a fraud, whether detected in large numbers or not. You already admitted that you have seen a handful of such cases. That is enough to tell you that fake MyKads are made, people voting using these fake MyKads robbing genuine voters of their rights, election influenced by illegal voters, etc all tells us that treasonous acts are being conducted right before our eyes.

            If this is a fact in the detected cases, would you not think that whoever is doing this only intended to make a few MyKads and risk going to jail and risk the anger of Malaysians? They are lucky that the greater numbers are not uncovered yet.

            Will you not agree that this is a fraud? Or you will rather sweep it under the rug saying it’s just a few cases so what’s the problem?

          • P2bm,

            Lets get it clear, we are discussing whether an election result should be overturned.

            Accepting that a fraudulent mykad is wrong but I can’t accept that the instances of such fraud is sufficient to overturn any result whether in favour of PR or BN.

            So do you agree or not? Lets limit to this first.

          • P2bm,

            Where did I admit that I have seen a few cases of fraud being committed?

            If you are referring to taking down the nombor siri by BN, it is something PR could do too cause it is an information made known by the SPR to both PA. Therefore such act can’t be fraudulent.

          • P2bm,

            In term of voting percentage, you justified by stating your reference was based on a range in respective constituencies. Isnt it strange you sought to use the average % announced by SPR as the lower range and the highest turnout being the top end of the range. You do this despite you know the lower end % are in the 70’s.

            I think you are out to pull wool over the eyes of the readers here.

          • SB4S

            1. Again, you have never read what I wrote properly. I already said a few times I was quite clear that there from what I have seen that there is insufficient quantify of Police Reports of this nature of fraud to stand in court for the affected seats. But it nevertheless proves fraud exist and this type of fraud is treasonous in nature involving fake MyKads.

            2. You said “Honestly, what I have seen PR were able to show is just a handful for the entire country”, I surmised you have seen and acknowledged the fraud but only a handful. As I have said, a fraud is a fraud.

            3. If you are familiar with stats, a few low turnout will lower the overall average. When I am free, I will show you the analysis. Majority of seats are between 84% up to 91%. I choose this range because it is real and it is highly abnormal. This means that ppl will be queuing to vote thruout the day which is not the case.

            So before we carry on further, are we on the same page here?

          • P2bm,

            Its good that you accepted that even if it was proven there are mykad fraud, it is too immaterial to affect the results of the GE13.

            Now we have gotten that out of the way, what are other instances that you know from your “secret source”, that can really … I mean REALLY, affect the election result.

          • You have not admitted that there were fake MyKads used given the Police Reports filed and published on various blogs and that tantamount to be fraud.

            Do you agree this is fraud?

            I am not here to serve up an expose of what PR may be doing. I will let them do their fight. I am just an observer. And to have a healthy debate here on things that are not going into the Petition. I will call a spade a spade regardless if it comes from PR or BN.

            Another is the indelible ink which is actually washable. Now this is a patent lie by the SPR that it is indelible and will last 5 days. SPR now brushes aside their lie and say it is inconsequential. Nobody can vote more than once. That is not the point.

            The point is that Army and Police personnel carries at least a dual identification which mean they can potentially vote twice if registered. Indelible ink was to prevent anyone from exploiting this. If the fake MyKads were actually made, they can have the same person using multiple fake MyKads to vote too.

            Now even if this happened (I am not making any accusations here, just in theory for discussion), the indelible ink will curb this loop hole in the electoral system.

            Does the SPR lie constitute a fraud then?

          • P2bm,

            1. I am not able ascertain whether there was actually a fake mykad and that is up to the police to investigate. Unless you have done the investigation and can conclusively show that there were fake mykad used, please do share with us.

            2. We are in agreement that even if its proven there are fake mykad, it must be substantial enough to overturn an election result. You have said that you doubt it would be substantial and therefore wont affect the result.

            3. Now you have raised the issue of indelible ink. Ok this is a new topic. Are you proposing that by virtue the indelible ink is in fact delible, the whole election result should be overturned?

          • I suppose the people who had Borang 10 and made police reports they weren’t allowed to vote because somebody had already voted against their MyKad numbers are all lying or deluded.

            I am contending that this is a serious fraud and must be eradicated. Did you hear anyone from SPR or Police doing anything? The silence is loud. It means they hope this will just go away and don’t dig it.

            And judging from how you reacted, you concur and let those in authority choose not to do anything about it.

            If it was you who couldn’t vote on 5 May because somebody had voted earlier using your MyKad, what will you do? I am sure your reaction will be the opposite.

            Either it happened with fake MyKads or SPR was in cahoots reading a genuine number on his book but holding a different MyKad. Both are fraud in my books. I am no longer sure what it is in yours.

            On the indelible ink, do you consider that a fraud or a lie or an oversight or misunderstanding or just a joke on Malaysians with our money?

          • P2bm,

            Its clear why Ellesse reacted in such a manner to you.

            You just cant accept any other point of view. You just jump from one point to another and refused to consider the main issue.

            The overturning of an election result is the main issue. And when you are stuck and cant reply, you divert the issue. So you revert to fraud mykad point of yours when you accept that it cant overturn an election result.

            When asked the impact of the delible ink on the election result, you cant answer and choose to divert the issue again.

          • I have been very clear in my case but you have refuse to acknowledge.

            I have agreed that fraud MyKads and the indelible ink fiasco will not overturn the results but they remain as fraud and faults, serious ones which you did not acknowledge.

            I also said that evidence for Petition will be left for PR parties to tender to the courts and not for me to serve up here. However, your position is that you know of no such evidence. So you maintain the election is clean and free of fraud. Anything else is a delusion.

            How is it you never read any of the above and harp on me changing my position? I never did yet you never acknowledge fraud or stated your positions on those issues. Your silence implies that it is quite OK to expect such fraud and lies since it cannot legally overturn the results.

            Is that not correct?

          • P2bm,

            Your points are noted but as I hv said the issue is the overturning of the elections.

            You are so stuck on mykad n delible ink, such that that becomes all you are worked up. So what if is true. Let the law takes its course against the perpetrators but it doesnt change the fact that the election results are not affected.

            So do you accept that BN is the legal government of Malaysia?

          • When did the topic change to whether BN is the legal Govt or not? Now you have shifted gears but say I change?

            The GE13 has happened and nothing I think about the results will matter. The Petitions will have to take place and the public will have to grapple with their anger of fraud etc.

            There will be more than 40 seats contended in the Petition, I predict. Let’s see what the High Court says and then what the Court of Appeals say. To me, it is probably easier to build the rocket than to produce the quantity of evidence. And that is why it keeps happening because they know they can’t get caught.

            I am not stuck on fraud MyKad and indelible ink. I presented these as items of fraud. I didn’t say they will overturn the results. While it is clear they are fraud, you have clearly avoided to acknowledge it nor are you outraged that it actually happened. Which may mean you condone it since it can’t be proven to be very widespread. Noting my points implies you agree to disagree. State your position on these what I call fraud before we go further.

          • P2bm,

            Lets go back to your first contention : “I know how some of the magic tricks are done to rig votes and buy votes from very reliable sources. These tricks have been around for a long time but it matters now because the results are close for the first time.”

            You said votes are rigged and it matters to the results.

            You just wrote “I have agreed that fraud MyKads and the indelible ink fiasco will not overturn the results but they remain as fraud and faults, serious ones which you did not acknowledge.”

            Now you say, the tricks you know of don’t matter to the results – you are only interested in the fraud.

            By your own admission, we all can conclude that you sought to mislead people that there were material tricks and therefore has a major impact on the election results based on your statement quoted above.

            What I have found out too that when pressed to justify, you will attempt to justify and when you are stuck, you change your position. You will also try to shift the pressure by turning it to me and saying that I accept fraud. HELLO, we are discussing your first contention, why introduce another topic – diversionary tactics, would be my conclusion.

            See your reply “When did the topic change to whether BN is the legal Govt or not? Now you have shifted gears but say I change?”

            When your proposition is that the tricks has an impact to the results ie. who is the Govt of Malaysia, and subsequently by your admission that the “tricks” you mention now has no impact to the results, isnt it natural for one to ask you – do you now accept the results ie. do you accept that BN is the legal government of Malaysia?

            Good thing about written comments, we can all see what you have said and now you have contradicted yourself.

            I agree with Ellesse that you are what he says you are, just by this interaction I have with you.

            However, I am a gracious commentator and I am sure the rest of the commentators here can agree, all you have to say, “I was wrong to say that the tricks has an impact to the GE results and I apologise for trying to mislead everyone here.”

            Anyway, knowing you, you will only say that when hell freezes over but deep down inside you, you mean that.

            So I forgive you. 😉

          • Kah kah kah. You’re funny. I would have stepped down if he had at least admitted it. The only difference between us is that you forgive him. May be I should do that. Hehehe.

          • Ha Ha good one there. I didn’t share material info because it is not the time nor place. Specifically, you have written long and lengthy yet NEVER once admitted that the fraud is a fraud.

            Maybe there is a case for some legal expert to take up and perhaps it can. Who are you or I to say it doesn’t stand? I may not think so does not mean I am right. You think it doesn’t stand doesn’t make you right either. If it is not scrutinized in court, we will never know and we can opine all we want.

            Your obvious refusal to admit these are real frauds may point to the fact your value system is totally different from mine. That is scary when you can gloss over fraud that is treasonous in nature.

            The goal post never shifted. We are still talking about the magic tricks. I showed 2 and discussed the possibility of how it impacts the situation. You never admitted they are frauds. How to proceed?

          • P2bm,

            You have just given me emphirical evidence that Hell has not frozen over!

            PS. Your apologies are still accepted

            LOL

      • Don’t make sweeping statement. Give one or two specific examples. Let me see whether you can justify with Sb4s.

  9. SB4S

    This is typical dishonest character of p2bm. Always changing goalposts. Never admitting he’s wrong. Having own definitions. Just read “not so proud to be Malaysian” post in the past.

    He claims this and that. Ask for basis its secret or personal. He has no moral compunction and morality to be dishonest. His only strength is he writes nicely.

    I respect your patience. Just proceed he can’t defend most of his points. Just be aware of him jumping here and there.

    • Looks like you have SB4S sounding just like you.

      Neither of you will admit to the obvious fraud. Still insist there is no fraud when is clearly otherwise. And our value system is definitely not on the same page. There is nothing further to discuss when a simple state your position if this is fraud yet you avoid the obvious answer.

      I readily admit what I shared may not be enough to overturn the results in Court so it is for our pleasure of beating it down. I also stated very clearly that the obvious evidence that is believed to stand in Court will be left to PR parties to do their Petition and is not my place to comment at this time. I am not their spokesperson.

      So when are you both going to admit the fake MyKads are fraudulent or you want to believe it is the people’s delusion when they were stopped from voting and the Police reports are all lies.

      Ball is in your court and don’t accuse me of changing goal post. I never said the Govt was illegitimate. I said I am very curious how the magic tricks were done. I still am. What did your secret sources say? All clean and what others alleged is a figment of imagination?

  10. P2bm,

    You have just given me emphirical evidence that Hell has not frozen over!

    LOL

  11. It appears you are clearly bemused with your lack of value system and refusal to admit if using fake MyKads is actually a fraud. Your reluctance stems from your thinking that if it is not decided by the Courts that it is not a fraud. Hence, you have no conscience in such matters as pertaining to GE13 or even in the broader aspects of life. If so, I do pity you.

    You are just like Ellese to call names and make accusations when there is nothing more you dare to admit. I have categorically stated I am not a party member of any political parties. But I do share a lot (not all) of PR positions on national matters. I have yet to embrace anything from BN yet but I am open.

    Does that mean you are a BN or Umno spokesperson, a cybertrooper paid to fitnah, a tout of Utusan Malaysia to fabricate stories? Then how did you conclude of me being part of a mythical, unproven Red Bean Army? I like red bean soup and ice kacang but you have really stretched your imagination to believe in a total fabrication in line with standard pro-BN bloggers and media. Seems you believe in the Red Bean Army myth more than the fake MyKads used in GE13, supported by Police reports. How sad.

    I never called you names, I never accuse you of being a part of any paid threats. I had presume you all to be ordinary Malaysians who take a position regardless if we disagree, and is for the betterment of our country. But from what you have just written, I may be naive to think that of both of you.

    And taking the Lingam queue from you, do you regard him as a fraud too? Or merely a joke? I struggle to understand your value system now.

    • P2bm,

      You said “Your reluctance stems from your thinking that if it is not decided by the Courts that it is not a fraud.”

      I am of a firm believer of innocent until proven guilty. Until determined by the Courts, it is merely an allegation. (P2bm, please dont go off tangent now and introduce a PR spin that the Courts are not independent, ok?)

      Do you share the same principle? Or are you the sort of person that concludes the guilt of a person just because such an allegation has been made against such person? Guilty until proven innocent? You said “All I say here is reasonable doubt on this fraud. I already heard of such cases in the morning of the Election Day in my area.”, shows that you are willing to come to a verdict despite your evidence are only hearsay and that there has been merely an allegation.

      So if I were to alleged that you are a rapist and produced all sorts of doctored pictures and make police report against you, Ellesse have the right to call you a rapist without waiting for proper investigation against you and the courts have not come to a guilty verdict? (P2bm, please pardon me, I am not alleging such heinous crime was committed by you, I am just giving an example)

      Are you also saying that people who don’t subscribe to your principle of “guilty until proven innocent” are people who don’t have moral fibre and thus support the crime being alleged? There is definite disconnect with your argument.

      • SB4S

        You are clearly selective in reading my comments.

        1. I won’t go off a tangent to discuss independence of our court system.

        2. Principle of innocent until proven guilty is accepted but it does not apply in my point of contention. I am not accusing anyone. I am asking you to agree if the fake MyKads constitute fraud.

        To use your example, I am not jumping the gun to accuse the doer coz in our fake MyKads case, we don’t know the parties involved. I am focusing purely on the act. So I say rape is heinous and criminal, just like producing and using fake MyKads to vote in GE13 is fraud.

        What is really your stand on the fake MyKads? Fraud or not? Why are you avoiding to make your stand on this? It’s a simple point and yet you beat around the big bush to avoid making your stand. Forget who really did it for now and the point is that fake MyKads used actually happened.

        • P2bm,

          I see now. You are not accusing of anyone. Say lah from the beginning. You just want to discuss the act, independent of election results etc.

          If like that, just like the acts of lying, misrepresentation, half truths, rape, sodomy etc I abhor the forging of NRIC.

          Oh by the way, if you have read my comments earlier, I have already said that.

          😉

          • SB4S, I kept asking you many times to state your position on fake MyKad and finally you say you abhor the forging of NRIC.

            There are many Police Reports made on genuine voters denied their right to vote because somebody came earlier to pretend to be them with fake MyKads. What is your position on this?

          • P2bm,

            I hv no problem anyone making police report. Just make sure it is true report otherwise their are committing a false report.

            I need to know where you are going with this? Ellesse’s post is on how PR deceives everyone. I hope your questions will lead back to that.

            I dont want you to start asking my favourite colourlah, food lah etc. Ok?

            😉

          • Clearly, Ellese has not stated a single shred of reference to anything he claimed. It is only fair when you publish an opinion piece accusing Rafizi yet no links to what is publicly known? This is horrendous commentary tantamount to personality murder.

            1. Accusing of gutter politics? Define and reference
            2. Alleging spoilt votes are fraudulent? In what context?

            Are you saying taking to Public Opinion Court is wrong, gutter politics and whatever negative adjectives you can find? This is politics and Malaysians have a right to know and form their opinions for themselves. If you think you know the truth, prove it and tell it but don’t just accuse without basis.

          • You’re at your dishonest self again. If you are malas membaca don’t accuse others. You’re typical of those who are proud of their ignorance. I’m not rewarding you for your laziness. Go read and google. Lazy bump.

          • Again typical of your style to never clearly state your reference but make sweeping remarks as usual. Also continuing to call names and make personal attacks without a single shred of reference or evidence which you always claim you do but readers know well you never.

            Accusing, calling names, etc but never give reference is totally baseless. I didn’t think you are but seemingly you have again proven me right.

          • Another bodoh comment. You think we can’t think ke?

            You think we don’t see dap and its supporters call not putting Malaysian first as racist ke? You think we don’t see proponents of vernacular schools (like you and dap) don’t put Malaysian interest first ke? You think we don’t see you’re Racist bigot ke?

            I have enough with your racist attitude. Then diverting argument. When I gave an elaboration then pretend to forget premise of argument.

            Idiots. Thinking others as stupid. One more of this, I’ll post you in one post and all your postings be there. Don’t deviate and show dishonesty. Crap value you have.

            I already have a posting on you. Anyone who wants to read your rubbish dishonest write can go there. Too much crap.

          • Rafizi shouldn’t give stupid comments to mislead. You may be conned. Go understand how our system works and how counting agents function.

            You don’t give stupid comment like pr counting agents not enough lah or not well train lah. Don’t make excuse for your own incompetency and stupidity.

          • I think you are the stupid one here. When SPR plays together with BN, you need all the help to check every step which is ridiculous. As long as the SPR is not independent and operates like a BN component, that is your own stupidity to accept this as fair. I know how our system works and it is premise on a fair and independent SPR. So you should stop making stupid comments actually.

          • Another bodoh comment. Diverting lagi. Don’t talk out of ignorance and your laziness to read. Pr is represented lah idiots.

      • SB4S,

        I just like that sentence of yours…..”I am of a firm believer of innocent until proven guilty. Until determined by the Courts, it is merely an allegation. (P2bm, please dont go off tangent now and introduce a PR spin that the Courts are not independent, ok?)”. The PR people have been very effective and strong in building ADVERSE PERCEPTION by manufacturing unsubstantiated allegations against UMNO/BN and Najib recognised this.

        • Can you say 100% for certain that the Courts are independent? I must confess that of late there are some sound judgment by brave Judges. Thank God for them. So the Judiciary is still somewhat independent.

          What happened to the Lingam RCI results? Down the toilet. Is it still happening? You tell me.

        • Anyway, the issue at hand is not about the courts.

          It is about fraud using fake MyKads but as you can see, nobody cares, nobody is taking any action, nobody feels this is treasonous, nobody thinks it is criminal, etc.

          Granted that this may not meet the requirements of the Election Offense petition, it is still a crime. And it will never be judged in Court because there is no case built by the authorities regardless of Police Reports as it will definitely put some agencies in bad light. So much for Judicial Independence when they will never get to hear them.

          Now, is this a perception or is it real? This is totally substantiated but will be swept under the carpet. Hence, this point will die in this discussion.

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